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Thread: Real Programmers

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    Default Real Programmers


    HAs any one ever read the story of Mel.

    Tel me what you think of this story:

    http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/fo...eal+Programmer

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    I have often felt that programming is an art form, whose real value can only be appreciated by another versed in the same arcane art; there are lovely gems and brilliant coups hidden from human view and admiration, sometimes forever, by the very nature of the process. You can learn a lot about an individual just by reading through his code, even in hexadecimal. Mel was, I think, an unsung genius.
    This is more true than words can describe.
    thanx finni03 this one article I can truly relate to. It's point though. The people who coded in ASM and those old programming languages are the real programmers.
    The pure-bread, unpopluted and un-microsofted. members of a depleting generation of people who knew what it was to write "CODE". Not just print screen.

    I know this all too well as I have begun my transition. Todays [b]easy code[b] is a mere dim reflection of what programming was then.

    My first big project (A graphical user interface, my pride and joy ) written in Turbo pascal 7 on a 486 machine with no mouse or harddrive. It has no ASM. But it's all my code. Links list, objects, inheritance, pointers, poly-morphism - the full hundred. If I wanted to do something I had to spend weeks or even months reading help (and rewriting) just to figure out how to get the darn thing to work the way I wanted it to. I wouldn't even continue to work on it unless it was just about=perfect.

    I haven't worked on it resently though. Why? Because my php forum project is sucking up all my time. See heres the thing: It's so easy that you can never completely finish what your doing. Plus, in order to achive anything significant you have to "OUT CODE" ever single sole on the planet! (instead of writing something totally original which is increasingingly harder to do now)

    In the end the article was a very good one. It highlights the great divide between what was and what can now be called programming. 4th and 5th generation language are the wave of the future. The way to go. They are easier to learn and they don't crash (well maybe a little on windows :P ). On the other hand though few will attain the status of a "REAL PROGRAMMER". Hundreds of if statments, loops and prints are just a mere shell (pun?) of what a real program is supposed to be. wait has anybody used ASP.NET? It's like 6th generation. Think of it a dynamic webpage where you don't have to write a single piece of html. ???

    reach for the sky.

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    That's why I just laugh when I see some guys hyping up themselves over some little telnet apps and other kids stuff. When I was @ Cast/Utech Beckles, Saga, Harry Campbell and many others used to write kick *** code to talk to devices like mouse and VGA. I actually wrote my own ray caster. I my concept real programmers don't depend on M$ api to write code. The can use vi or other simple editors to write raw Iron code

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    I'm not refering to you "Contageous". Just another guy in another forum hyping himself over nothing

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    Those ASM programmers are scary. I've never ventured in the depts of it. I prefered to watch from a far.

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    Real Programmers - - --- This type of programmin was the reason why I got into programin. Doin every thing for ur self. Althought now I am distracted by all the pre-writen and compiled code of the 4th and 5th generation langauges.

  7. #7
    igodit Guest

    Default Re:Real Programmers

    I think you guys still have it wrong, even though programming started out that way doesn't mean it stays that way. Technology grows over time, what would you say if your parents told you that they used to communicate by writing letters by hand, and now you kids just have t type and press send. You would probably say "Technology"

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    Default Re:Real Programmers

    [quote author=igodit link=board=19;threadid=723;start=0#msg13475 date=1059663286]
    I think you guys still have it wrong, even though programming started out that way doesn't mean it stays that way. Technology grows over time, what would you say if your parents told you that they used to communicate by writing letters by hand, and now you kids just have t type and press send. You would probably say "Technology"
    [/quote]
    Here is an interesting pardigm for you.
    I have 3 PDA's, only one is being used.
    But I still religiously write stuff down on paper !
    I had been using PDA's since the original palm 1 came out... but after a while... paper seduced me again.

    I like to read, especially the classics... this month its "The pilgrim's Progress.", I could have easily downloaded the PDF (e-book) file from project guttenberg, but I love the sensation of opening a book and feeling, smelling paper. There is something to be said about turning leaves.

    I occasionally draw electrical diagrams... I don't use CAD, or DIA, instead I preffer to use my trusty number 2H or 6H staedler pencils. There is something to be said about the ritual of sharpening a pencil with a manual sharpener. Ohh and I do preffer to use a knife to sharpen my draughting pencils.

    I use LINUX, but most importantly, I have a prefference for using CONSOLE and if I am using GUI, i preffer to use Windomaker... there is alot to be said about simplicity.

    When I program I write C code in vi and then manually run it through gcc. If its a big enough project I use motor as my console IDE. I tend to shy away from Kdevelop although it is excelent.

    I burn CD's in console... especially when building my own personal music collections from MP3's.

    There are those people who just like doing things differently and in an "ancient" manner. As a result they often become EXCELENT at whatever it is they do, perhaps because they have a deeper understanding of the thing.

    Withing context, there is no right or wrong way to do certain things. Just be sure you are good at it.

    --regards
    Gillion

  9. #9
    igodit Guest

    Default Re:Real Programmers

    All well and true Gillion, but you didn't mention anything about making the pencil or the paper before you used it, did you, if you did I must have missed that part.

    What I'm saying are you a real programmer because you did it from scratch? You are right just be sure you are good at it. But you not going to catch me reinventing the wheel unless I'm building a better one.

    I remember a few years ago, people bragging about "Oh I'm a Webmaster and I develop in notepad"

    -- WhoopdeeFreakingDo If you know the language doesn't matter what you did it in, doesn't mean you are anymore better than the next guy that knows the language and does it in Dreamweaver.

    Yeah I love to go back and do it all from scratch, use the console windows, yeah it give you feel of "I can do it"

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    Default Re:Real Programmers

    [quote author=igodit link=board=19;threadid=723;start=0#msg13494 date=1059667598]
    All well and true Gillion, but you didn't mention anything about making the pencil or the paper before you used it, did you, if you did I must have missed that part.

    What I'm saying are you a real programmer because you did it from scratch? You are right just be sure you are good at it. But you not going to catch me reinventing the wheel unless I'm building a better one.

    I remember a few years ago, people bragging about "Oh I'm a Webmaster and I develop in notepad"

    -- WhoopdeeFreakingDo If you know the language doesn't matter what you did it in, doesn't mean you are anymore better than the next guy that knows the language and does it in Dreamweaver.

    Yeah I love to go back and do it all from scratch, use the console windows, yeah it give you feel of "I can do it"
    [/quote]

    You have rasied a point.
    Old school hackers' used to talk about going zen.
    When you go zen on a project, nothing but the project exists. Nevertheless, my point is that, some people, get a "spiritual" , physical and emotional high when working on code, especially if they do it with bare tools.

    Having dabbled in martial arts and asian philosophy I realised several things about work and life...
    But in this context I limit them to:

    (1) A poor workman blames his tools.
    I hear some people cussing C. I can't use it, its so arcane. I preffer Java its more modern.
    In fact, both can do the job it just depends on you the programmer.
    (2) Your tools are only as good as you are.
    If you are unable to use them to their full potential and use them in a way in which you OUTGROW them then you are NO GOOD.

    I have read of Shaolin Monks who spend years just learning how to use their bare bodies as weapons instead of using conventional wepaons. Once they have excelled beyond that then they evolve and extend to using other weapons.

    It is this "philosophy" that older programmer's and hacker's are trying to impart to the "newer" generation but at the same time, they (elder's) sometimes fail to remember that coding is like an art, some use brushes, some use charcoal and others use pencils. It is the finished work that counts... not the necessarily method.
    It is the finished work that pays.

    By the way, I used to make paper from recycled newspapers and make scrap books and book wrappers when going to high school. In prep school, my friends and I used to get a kick out of making waxbody pencils by stripping the graphite out of HB elephant pencils (the wood was no good) and encasing it in straws with wax or old pen shells.

    Using those pencils was psychologically more meaningfull than ready made pencils even ones from Faber Castel.

    I guess for some coding via asm is a lot like that... and I can tell you only from my experience, coding in asm is a serious high. You take nothing for granted and you certainly have to be more efficient.

    I do not do stuff like that anymore :'( because time is at a premium and time is also money.

    I used to code html in vi and before that notepad on 95... but that was before they invented WYSWIG html editors of course. When I started to use Frontpage on 95 and Quanta on linux, I appreciated the art more and the tools, but I never got that... buzz, I got from crunching out stuff with vi.

    Its like... romance....

    --regards
    Gillion

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