Codecs, Filters & File Formats

[khat17]

Now this is going to become my project thread. I'm going to do a helluva lot of copying and pasting from other posts I have outside of TJ, and try to make this as comprehensive as possible.

Here I am going to be discussing what I've learned, tested, and discovered about codecs, filters, and video file formats. This is going to take some time, and a bit of editing from my outside posts, so bear with me while I try to deal with this. Please bear in mind that the information I'll be posting is primarily for the Windows OS only. Discussion about codecs/filters for MAC or LINUX are welcome as well.

THE MEAT OF THE MATTER


FIRST TOPIC - CODECS AND FILTERS

Good day everyone. Firstly, it's kinda bad to have excessive codecs on your system. From personal experience, it does mess with things over time. You should only install what you need. Most people who only watch anime, movies, or videos in general and don't do encoding of any sort don't really need codecs...........they just need filters.

A filter pack differs from a codec pack in one way particularly:
- Codecs are used to encode and may be used to decode as well
- Filters do not do encoding, just decode for playback purposes

As such, in my experience there are three filter packs that I've found and like. In order from most preferred to least preferred are:

CCCP - http://www.cccp-project.net/

Satsuki - http://yatoshi.com/en/index.php?p=decoder&...25023d2f43a218f

Defilter - http://hellninjacommando.com/defilerpak/

My reasons for the preferences would be:

CCCP
-------
Always being improved on, works with EVERYTHING (except QT and RM, but if you install REALATERNATIVE and QUICKTIMEALTERNATIVE you can use any player to playback RM and QT files). It also has a beautiful wiki, which I will post at the end for you to read, which shows the differences with filter and codecs in much better detail than I can.

Satsuki
---------
Actually told to me by my wife. It's very nice, improvements are being made constantly, but is not so much of a minimalist installation.

Defilter
---------
Defilter is probably the best minimalist installation package, as it only installs one thing mainly, and a few additionals for "just in case".


Overall, CCCP is my favourite because it works, it's small, it has a good wiki, and their chatroom is always open to help people who need info on the codec, and they are willing to listen to their users about bugs or glitches.

CCCP FAQ
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http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ

CODEC PACKS ONLINE
I have tried and used K-Lite, All in One, Cole2K, Nimo, ACE, Codec 7.8h, The Codecs, Microsoft's Windows Media Codecs, and the mainstream codecs (individual install of DivX, Xvid, X264 etc.) and as far as I've seen and tested, those I've listed (in order - CCCP / Satsuki / Defilter) are the best packages. As was stated, and as is in the CCCP FAQ (http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ) it is bad to install multiple codecs. I know this from experience. But, as with CPU's and Graphics Cards, it will all come down to personal preference. Granted it may work for some but not for all, do what works for you. My view will still stand. Unless you are doing encoding, I don't see the point of installing codecs, a filter pack works best. Less risk of messing up your machine. Also, if you need to do encoding, install the individual codec you need.

I have seen a lot of posts on this site regarding the K-Lite Codec Pack. Honestly, I think it's kinda like the CPU wars, and the graphics card wars. It' not a matter of what the benchmarks may say, it all comes down to personal preference in the end. If you've seen that a particular codec pack works for you, then fine.....run with it. My general argument is though, that unless you do encoding you don't need a codec. If you think that what you have works well for you, then you don't need anything else. But if it ever comes down to a reinstallation of Windows, and you'd like to check for a performance difference, you're welcome to trying any of my suggestions. And they're just that.......suggestions. As is personal preference, they're really just my point of view. If you don't like it, don't try it. If your interest is piqued, then research it and experiment. Hope the info helps, and hope we'll all have our PC's totally clutter free of excess codecs installed. A Jamaican saying is that "cats and dogs don't have the same luck" (puss an' dawg nuh ave di same luck), and what it means is that some of us may install a codec pack and never have a problem ever, while some of us may install it and have a few hitches, and others will install and have many troubles. Whatever works for you, use it. If you think you want to try something else, try it. Personally, I've tried a lot (listed above) and as far as I've seen, CCCP is what I'll use. And if you do editing of the different encoded files (VirtualDub, TMPEGENC etc..), all you need to do is open FFDSHOW (installed with CCCP) and set the desired filters to be decoded by LIBAVCODEC. If you want either MPLAYER CLASSIC or ZOOMPLAYER (both installed by default) to play QUICKTIME or REAL MEDIA files without having to use the bulky Apple Quicktime installer or add another "player of everything" with RealPlayer, just get the REALALTERNATIVE and the QUICKTIME ALTERNATIVE, and go to the options in either program and associate with said formats. Links are below

REAL ALTERNATIVE
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/...lternative.htm

QUICKTIME ALTERNATIVE
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/QuickT...Alternative.htm

If you're one that doesn't want to install any codecs at all, you can use the VLC Media Player. It doesn't install any codecs......it has them all built into the program, and I have yet to come across a format that it doesn't play........but I think you'll still have to install the REAL ALTERNATIVE and QUICKTIME ALTERNATIVE in order to get it to play those formats (correct me if I'm wrong here). BSPLAYER is another good app, but as I said, it's all up to you. If it were up to me, I'd either install one of the filter packs listed in the first post, or VLC.

VLC PLAYER
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

Oh, and BTW even though I still stand by CCCP - I've seen one occasion where MPC in CCCP would not play one file, and it was a corrupted download of some movie that a friend had, and VLC played it nonetheless.......I think some of the video header information was crapped, and the audio info was totally whacked, and only the video would show........MPC in CCCP just couldn't render the file at all.........but that was only one instance, and my personal preference will let me stay by CCCP. I also have Portable VLC (http://portableapps.com - for anyone with a thumb drive) and I do use it on the road, so if I ever come across something that wont play with CCCP, then I always have VLC as a backup. If it doesn't play in either though.........believe me, it's not good (remembering the NFO about QT and RM).

ANOTHER STANDALONE PLAYER I'VE TESTED
I would also like to add to the list KMPlayer.

http://www.download.com/The-KMPlayer/3000-...4-10659940.html

http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63

http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4094

http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/index.php

Basically it plays everything. And I mean everything. It even plays FLV!!! It's really nice. The ONLY problem I have with it was with a test file of an anime called "THE SKULL MAN" where - as an MKV - it loaded the subtitles kinda off. At least it didn't overlap them like VLC. This will become my secondary player, since it's fully portable as well. There are persons I know who are video enthusiasts who don't like it - but as stated also, it comes down to your own personal preferences.

[khat17]

SO WHAT ABOUT CODEC PACKS ONLINE?
This quote is from the CCCP wiki - which is at the top of the posts I made. Note the section in bold.

Why Should I Use the CCCP?

Because we couldn't find a codec pack that worked in all the cases.

All the other codec packs that are around have at least one of the following problems:

They just don't work.
It's no good installing a codec pack if it doesn't help. The CCCP was put together to be able to play all the latest files by all anime groups and all videos in general.
They damage your system.

Some codec packs like the Nimo codec pack can actually cause damage to your system that can only be fixed with a format. Not cool. We wanted the CCCP to be a codec pack that was 100% safe. Please, if the CCCP ruins your system, tell us on our forums so we can fix it. Total number of irreversible errors caused by the CCCP:

They are bloated.
When a codec pack has five decoders that do the same thing (as K-Lite does), it's almost impossible to work out what the problem is if something breaks. With the CCCP, we wanted to create a compact codec pack, which had less annoying extras, and fewer places for problems to crop up in.

With the CCCP, we KNOW that when you install it properly, it just works. You don't need to mess around in the options to get it to work, and chances are it will resolve any other conflicts on install as well. We invented the CCCP so we can say "Uninstall everything else, install the pack and live forever happy". That said, for the adventurous there are pages of options available to tweak if you feel like it..

CCCP's latest version plays FLV off the bat as well, but KMPlayer has a helluva lot of features. As it stands, CCCP is my primary player/pack and KMPlayer is my secondary. Heh, VLC is now on back burner for me.

MORE ON CCCP
A friend on another forum pointed me to MPC-HC recently, and I'm glad to say, it has been integrated into CCCP.

For your edification:

Media Player Classic is a compact media player for Microsoft Windows. The application mimics the look and feel of the old, light-weight Windows Media Player 6.4 but integrates most options and features found in modern media players. (Taken from WIKIPEDIA)

Now the MPC project has been halted for some time now, by the developer Gabest. Media Player Classic - Home Cinema is a continuation of that project by someone else. "This project is based on the original "Media Player Classic" and was created after Gabest, the original author, stopped working on it. Several new features have been integrated in this player" (see the website for details).

Now MPC-HC can play video all on it's own with internal decoders, and now integrated with CCCP, I think it was a pretty sweet move.

For the video enthusiasts here, and for those who want to test, I have a preview for an anime done in X264.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/26ztlk<- H264 TEST VIDEO TO BREAK YOUR MACHINE IS HERE.

Download it and you can benchmark your machine based on the performance. As far as decoding H264 videos go, COREAVC does the best job as a software decoder. For the graph card enthusiasts, you will know that the newer cards by nVidia and ATI come with the power to do the decoding on the card. You may also know that nVidia and ATI advertise POWERDVD and WINDVD (respectively) as the software for use in sending the video stream to the graphics card for decoding. The newest version of CCCP with MPC-HC can do this, and MPC-HC (CCCP) is FREE. POWERDVD and WINDVD with the features to send the stream to the card cost around USD$100, and this can only be done with video formats supported by the player. Neither of those you have to buy support MKV. We'll get to that file format later on.

The fact is, there is now a free player with the ability to send your video stream to your graphics card for decoding. To test it, you need to disable FFDSHOW, COREAVC, or any other H264/X264 decoder you have on your system, and enable the internal decoder for MPC-HC, which will send the stream to the hardware to be decoded.



Note the option H264/AVC - DXVA is checked. Now as a challenge for people who swear their hardware is the shiz. Hehe. Anyone with a single core CPU try playing that without the hardware decoding and tell me what your CPU usage is - with the file provided in the link. I've done this before and on a single core CPU the usage is almost always 100%. With a dual core CPU the usage is between 40% and 60%, but the audio will usually run and leave the video behind. With hardware decoding (I've tested with POWERDVD and with MPC-HC) the CPU usage was like 0%-4%. Try and let us know how it goes.

MPC-HC - STANDALONE PLAYER AS WELL
If you visit the website for MPC-HC, you can download it and just drop it on your thumb drive for use as a PORTABLE APPLICATION on your thumb drive. It makes nice for a small portable player. Your choices would be MPC-HC, VLC, or KMPLAYER as portable players.

-----------------------------------
More to come. It's a bit of info to sift through. Next will be on video formats and containers.

[Cloudx]

Quite alot to read.... Couldnt u just provide links for all this info.....

[khat17]

"Links to all this info" would be to threads in forums outside of TJ, and you'd have to sift through the conversations with myself and others in order to get the info. If you like I can provide the links none-the-less.

Continuing........

VIDEO FILE FORMATS

As most of us in here know, when we look for anime, movies or music videos or rip our own, we try to get it in the best possible quality. The codec we use for encoding has a lot to do with this (quality) and personal usage has shown me that the X264 codec rules where it comes to anime in particular, but is getting better and competitive with all other popular codecs on the market. Codecs aside, the truth is that AVI is old. AVI as common as it may be, is just another container format (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_format) that is used to hold audio and video together; which is why you have an AVI file with DIVX/XVID video and MP3 audio. The problem with AVI is that it doesn't support subtitles unless hacked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...tainer_formats) and is limited in its abilities. Though most of us, and myself, have seen a lot of videos in AVI format, and when ripping it is usually the container of choice, in more recent times (about a year now maybe......) and with the discovery of other formats, I have found that the Matroska -MKV- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroska) format is the best [in my opinion].

With MKV, if you use the tools available from the home page (http://www.matroska.org/) you can extract each part of the file: AUDIO / VIDEO / SUBTITLES. Meaning if you want just one audio stream (Japanese / English) you can extract it. If you want just the video, you can extract it. If you want to re-compile the MKV with only the video and the English audio track, you can do so as well. The MKV format is just so very flexible (IMO).

You can also see some good results coming from the OGM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OGM) but it's not as flexible as MKV. The beauty of MKV, as seen by myself when ripping, is that you can take almost every aspect of your original DVD and place it into a playable media file. So I ripped my HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE and included both Japanese and English audio, and English subtitles. This means that I can choose to either watch the show in English, or Japanese with English subs. Kool huh? Granted the more audio streams added to the file means that the video quality will deteriorate (unless you have a larger file size to compensate), I still use this format, and get very good results. If anyone here has seen my anime list, you'll see which things I have that I've ripped myself. Wallace & Gromit was ripped by me as well, and when I played it for someone who was not familiar with the format, and all he could say was that it's hard to tell the difference between the file and the DVD. This was because it was ripped with the X264 codec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X264) and not because of the MKV container. What surprised him about the MKV, was the fact that you could turn on/off the subtitles whenever you wanted, and that I had ripped the regular audio and the directors comments as well.

Don't take my word for it, go to the sites listed (mostly wikipedia) and check it out for yourself. As far as I'm concerned, MKV is the thing to use, OGM next, and all other formats fall behind those. MP4 is decent, and has good flexibility, but as personal preference, and as MKV is open/public/free I'll go with that. OGM is also free, which is why it's my second choice.

You will also notice that many of the subbing/ripping groups online (anime groups) have made this move: AVI - OGM - MKV. They have moved from one container format to the next, and are finding MKV more flexible as well. Those who have not made the move are usually stuck on OGM since they have all the tools and additional software to work with it, and don't want to change what works. The ones that usually have AVI only are subbing groups, who want their presence to be known, and the subtitles to be hard-coded into the video so that their work is not used elsewhere. Granted they could still do that (watermark the video) and make the subs soft-subs in either OGM or MKV, but I can't tell a man how to do his job.

Groups like DATTEBAYO - who anyone in here who watches anime should know or know of - that use AVI as their popular format do so for the sheer fact that it's the most popular container on the market. Just about every PC will play an AVI by default. This is not what I've heard from them, but what I figure based on knowledge of the containers. I've done ripping for myself, gotten anime online, spoken with persons in some subbing groups, and spoken with persons who do ripping and encoding. The fact is that MKV is the most flexible when it comes to adding content, followed by OGM and MP4, but AVI is the most popular at the moment.

A quote from WIKIPEDIA on MATROSKA -> "The Matroska Multimedia Container is an open standard free Container format, a file format that can hold an unlimited number of video, audio, picture or subtitle tracks inside a single file." You can go there and read up on it for yourself.

*EDIT*
ADDITIONAL INFO FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T GET ACCELERATION TO WORK

Information here is taken from my friend N1 on IDW. Some of it has been modified to fit in here. Now on to the matter:

For some people, the playback and sending of H264 video streams to your graphics card may not work. If it does not, you need to check and see that MPC-HC is actually sending the stream to your hardware to be decoded. To do this, play an h.264 video in MPC, and while it is playing go to Play->Filters->MPC Video Decoder.



First, confirm that "Enable DXVA" is checked.



If it is, see if the greyed-out text says "Not Using DXVA" or "H.264 bitstream decoder, no FGT."



The former is obvious; the latter means that hardware acceleration is indeed working.

If "MPC Video Decoder" is not present, there's your problem - see below.

If acceleration is not working for you, one of the following is true:

-You have not blocked your other h.264 playback filters; therefore MPC's decoder is not running. Block all other h.264 decoders, and make sure that MPC's is checked.

-Your output settings are not correct. Make sure you're using EVR Custom in Vista or VMR9 Renderless in XP.

-You have not blocked VobSub and switched to MPC's internal subtitle filter. Block VobSub, and check "Auto-load Subtitles" in the Playback page of MPC's settings.

-Your video card does not support h.264 bitstream decoding.

-The video you are trying to decode does not comply with the BluRay standard for h.264. You can confirm this with MediaInfo; look for the number of reference frames. THORA releases, for instance, have a uselessly large amount of reference frames which do not comply with BluRay standards and therefore do not work with hardware acceleration.

Please remember that hardware acceleration was designed with DVDs and BluRay discs in mind, not files on your computer. Therefore, the files on your computer need to comply with either the DVD or BluRay standards for hardware decoding to work.

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CREDITS AND THANKS

Thanks go to the INITIAL D WORLD forum members, and particularly to my friend NOMAKE WAN from IDW. Some quotes here are taken from him, or through research done jointly with him. All research done for this conducted by NOMAKE WAN and myself.

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And that about covers my post on CODECS/FILTERS and VIDEO FORMATS. Hope it was educational to all who read. Questions, comments and additions welcome.

[Jamafia]

Been using klite for years now, best codec out there now.

[blenny]

klites a bit overrated though

[khat17]

Been using klite for years now, best codec out there now.

This is going to be a semi-long rebuttal

Correction - K-LITE is not a codec but a collection of codecs and that's why it's called the K-Lite Codec Pack with 4.1.7 being your latest available version.

As I stated - to each his own. K-LITE and NIMO are both BLOATED. Overly. I guess you do video editing and whatnot why you need so many codecs installed? I do video editing, and outside of X264, DivX and CCCP, I have nothing else installed. Real Alternative and QuickTime Alternative for the sake of decoding those.

I have seen from personal experience and from clients who had these things on their system where videos just refuse to render properly due to the bloated codecs. These were all fixed with any of the three filter packs listed above. As I said though, if you want it and it works for you - use it (your bloated codec packs).

If you just use it for playback, you may eventually see a case where you can't play a video encoded in whichever format - unless you've just been sticking to a particular format/set of videos, in which case it's still overkill to have that many codecs on your system.

The mishaps in these codec packs is that they have so many different things doing the exact same thing, and nothing is configured to place priority on what does the decoding. For encoding purposes, you may want DivX and Xvid on your machine - notice that Xvid is DivX spelled backwards. Do you know the history of the two? Go Google it. Xvid is basically a group who were involved in the DivX project and after DivX became payware they broke off and developed Xvid as a free solution. Now unless you benchmarking the two, there is no need to have them both decoding - because they can both decode each other - the coding being similar. And if you're decoding, you don't need DivX, Xvid and FFDSHOW to be doing decoding at the same time. Or fighting to see which will start the decoding first. This is why you have messed up video over time from using these bloated packs. If you're going to be using them, spend the time to go through the settings and turn off the multiple "I am the default decoder for......" and leave one as the king. That way you wont eventually run into issues.

I stand by CCCP, multiple subbing groups stand by it, but if you want to deal with a bloated codec pack versus a filter pack - be my guest.

Please let me know if K-Lite allows you to do hardware decoding of H264 videos. It's there in the posts above for download.

CALLING ATI PEOPLE FOR ASSISTANCE
I don't have any of the newer ATI cards that can decode H264 video streams, so if you could - download the video file above and test it out and let me know if the ATI cards can get the job done.

PERSONAL PREFERENCE
It comes down to personal preference and experience still. I've had nothing but bad experiences with ATI - except their AGP 9800 series cards, and even those had a fan/cooling issue. If I don't periodically pull and oil that fan you're not going to stop hearing it.

Now I've been promoting nVidia for quite some time now, and I have used ATI cards. To me, nVidia is superior. I haven't used the latest released cards that are said to be at the top of the market now, but from what I've seen and used I much rather nVidia. I have friends who say the opposite - that they've had nothing but worries with nVidia and that ATI is more stable. This kind of argument could go on forever - the point is that you should just stick to the evil that has worked for you.

[Jamafia]

oh zeen.. my bad.. still is the best.. divx is a #2

[khat17]

I see you're not understanding so well - so I'll leave you be. Let me try one last time for good measure. K-Lite is not a codec. It's a collection of codecs done by a group (K-Lite Software) and distributed as a solution for encoding and decoding. It includes DivX which - by your last post - you seem to not be registering is a part of the package of codecs included in K-Lite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-lite

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...video_dec.html <-HD (H264) Decoding

If you're not understanding me, try reading it up on WIKIPEDIA or some other wiki or forum online.

While I'll acknowledge that K-Lite is much "lighter" than other packs such as NIMO, the fact still remains - unless you're doing video encoding, you don't need a codec - just a filter for the different formats.

[Nestersan]

Why do you even bother......

I am sure Klite is a codec much like Q-tips are all types of cotton swabs, and Cutex is all types of nail polish remover....

Poor Jamaica.....