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Thread: Professors Slam Java As "Damaging" To Students

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGPGroup View Post
    I dont agree 100% with the article/professor, however I do understand their frustration. I think when people are learning to program too much emphasis is placed on the language. More emphasis should be placed on the things that makes a good programmer, things like problem analysis, data structures, algorithm concepts, design patterns, object oriented design... etc. The language you learn is not important. If you are a good programmer, then transitioning from one language to another should not take more that a few months, the hardest part of learning a language is learning the libraries, not its syntax.
    I haven't programmed anyting in 8 years but I think some environments are imposssible to work wit..
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  2. #22
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    Default Don't miss the point

    I agree with the concerns of the professors and their recommendations 100%. There are a few things to note, which becomes apparent after reading the article in full.

    First, the article is not discussing how to teach people to program. It's not talking about programmers. It is addressing how to create computer scientists and software engineers. Computer scientist != programmer AND Software engineer != programmer.

    To be a computer scientist and a software engineer, you need to see the big picture and that includes the hardware. A good example is creating software that operates an aircraft. That takes a software engineer, not a programmer. It's like the difference between a car engineer and a mechanic. Mechanics fix, upgrade and optimize what the engineers product. But you wouldn't get a mechanic to make a car. In fact, most mechanics would not even know where to start. Please note that this is in no way putting mechanics and programmers down. Programmers are needed just as mechanics are needed. But someone has to build the car too. Someone has to define the language, build the compiler, and make the environment. That is the job of the computer scientist and the software engineers.

    Second, the article is not a criticism of the Java programming language. They infact stated that it has its place in Computer Science Education in teaching things like concurrency. The article isn't even advocating C as the starting point, they prefer Ada. What the article is addressing is how computer science courses are structured. Once again, note that they are talking about computer science course as a whole, not how to make programmers.

    Finally, note the emphasis on formal specification methods and formal proof methodologies. This isn't about programming languages at all. This is about the bigger picture: assuring the reliability of mission critical software. Many computer science majors don't even have a clue as to what those terms mean. And therein lies the problem.
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  3. #23
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    Languages shouldn't matter much....If the concept of Pseudocode is taught and learned properly.
    The trouble with learning from experience
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    the lesson afterwards

  4. #24
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    I vote to cut programming courses in university by half! more on engineering... programming is something u can learn on ur own... just give us the basic concepts and maths and drown us in the science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owen View Post
    Programming is not about creating objects - its about solving problems.
    did you come up with that yourself, it's so quotable, and perfectly describes the misalignment in current systems of learning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icymint3 View Post
    did you come up with that yourself, it's so quotable, and perfectly describes the misalignment in current systems of learning.
    Yup, you can quote me saying it. I've written articles on OOP design and the "why" behind the concept. Students just aren't getting the concept of programming in its general sense and its mostly because of starting out with sandbox languages.

  7. #27
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    I think Nder has nailed the point of the article.

    Noting a few of the comments however I would like to make the point as someone who now recruits coders and tutored University students. A good software solution team that actually tackles no-trivial (no pick-up solution on the shelf) problems requires both scientist and coders, and while most cs. scientist (MSC+) are coders, few coders take the time and effort to add the math & science to their skill set. That being said, if you are gonna be working in Ja. for local entities, save the headache, go get an MBA in finance or marketing after learning vb6 or ASP.net.

  8. #28
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    Well my two cents is that yes C was hard and mi nay like it much but it teaches you to be a disciplined programmer... but guess wah... technology is di way to go... and anything weh mek a man job easier him ago love it and work wid it.... so raise yours glasses to GUI...
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  9. #29
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    I disagree with the professor. the Java / Vb beginner languages will weed out from early the non programmers as will c/ c++ the drawback with C++ is that it is hell of a difficult language that will discourage beginners who may well be the next.....Larry Page or Sergey Brin.

    The idea is to develop the concept, then the concept will be adapted with whichever language So i disagree with prof on that note.

    PS: Contrary to what you might think, if you want a job at microsoft or a top level company as a software engineer or software developer in test you had better be married to C++. C# is used as secondary. These companies want fast Apps so C++ is the language they use.


    Bottom line: It's up to the Student, how far they are willing to go with their career and the path they are willing to take
    Last edited by digimon; Jul 28, 2008 at 09:20 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxFactor1 View Post
    Well my two cents is that yes C was hard and mi nay like it much but it teaches you to be a disciplined programmer... but guess wah... technology is di way to go... and anything weh mek a man job easier him ago love it and work wid it.... so raise yours glasses to GUI...
    you can know the D&D man them.

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