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Thread: Linux desktop distributions are headed in the wrong direction

  1. #21
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    No hold on hold on, dont get me wrong... i never said console was unreliable

    What i was saying was that the concept of a console is ancient. The entire concept of command line interfaces is ancient, most people (general public) dont even know how a command line interface looks (even though its just a blank screen with a cursor).

    My other bottom line is this... Linux people keep complaining that software manufacturers aren't porting their software for the linux o/s and hardware manufactureres aren't releasing linux compatible drivers. The only way for the linux community to gain more respect is to gain a larger user group... the only way to gain a larger user group is to make software that EVERYBODY can use, and because EVERYBODY can use it and it is FREE you will get all the software and drivers you need. But the only way to make software that EVERYBODY can use is if you think about the layman, other than that we the linux community just goin haffi sit down and continue suffering.

    If everybody was techy enough to use any o/s they felt like, then all of us here on techjamaica would have nothing to do, we wouldnt have jobs and we would have to switch fields. You say linux is made for the hardcore techy but hardcore techies are so few there are only few users of linux, but the number gets even smaller when you consider the fact that not all hardcore techies use linux. A great percentage use windows, a smaller amount os/x and a miniscule amount linux and other operating systems.... as a matter of fact the linux community is so small that in surveys it is always listed under linux and other operating systems, we dont even get our own category. What reason does Mr. Big Corporation have to want to help us out when he has a whole nother 98.something% of people he can make money out of
    Last edited by Skillachi; Jul 31, 2006 at 04:24 PM.
    Laptop: HP DV6700t - Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5Ghz, 3GB RAM, Nvidia 8400m GS, 250GB HDD. Ubuntu 12.04 and Windows 7
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by skillachi
    No hold on hold on, dont get me wrong... i never said console was unreliable
    What i was saying was that the concept of a console is ancient. The entire concept of command line interfaces is ancient, most people (general public) dont even know how a command line interface looks (even though its just a blank screen with a cursor).
    No disrespect but please backup you facts with some proof. If the CLI is ancient, explain this. Also, I am no programmer, but I have taken a gander at python gui libs, and basically, using these as the proof of the upcoming statement, CLI is much simpler than GUI. If I had the choice of having a CLI based system with GUI application software launched from that same CLI, I would take it without a thought. The fact is the GUI uses the same backend as the CLI only piling on a heap of other code. If you systrace a CLI command, you see how the code executes. Systrace a GUI program that does the same thing as that CLIM and you will see similar code and then probably a heap of garbage equations that might end up crashing because you end up running code that runs code to run code that runs code. CLI is simply code that runs code.

    The fact that so many CLI options are hidden in MS products doesn't affect most. This is because the GUI gives them what is most popular. But not knowing that the GUI is quite dependent on CLI commands is what contributes to insecure systems. They think that with the fw app clicking block all traffic does just that ... block all traffic. They don't know that it has to go through the operating system codes to halt and set certain protocols and services, while at the same time still running services unbeknownst to the user, thereby, causing false security sense. That is why it's so easy for malware to propogate in a GUI system.

    To cut this not-properly-thought-out-essay short, there is no way GUI will ever outdo CLI. CLI is usually the first available interface to doing something because it usually uses the same instructions or ideas the programmer already had, while GUI has to add much more to those same instructions. Therefore, present GUI systems are simply frontends to CLI and CLI will never go away.
    The only way for the linux community to gain more respect is to gain a larger user group... the only way to gain a larger user group is to make software that EVERYBODY can use, and because EVERYBODY can use it and it is FREE you will get all the software and drivers you need.
    Actually, this isn't the main reason. A major reason why drivers are readily made available is because GNU/linux is open source, meaning that even if someone buys code it can be distributed free of cost. That means if they make the code they won't make any big income from it. If the source of a driver is made available, then everyone may have it for free, once it has an open source license. And that means no profit, even though they would already be making alot from the hardware the driver runs on. It's just greed why drivers aren't made available for hardware that people buy.
    most people (general public) dont even know how a command line interface looks (even though its just a blank screen with a cursor).
    If someone grow up around electric stove, don't it going take a while to learn to use a gas one? Or if they never use matches just electric lighter, you think they will ever (want to) use matches (properly)?
    Last edited by carey; Jul 31, 2006 at 07:48 PM.

  3. #23
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    The bad news is that Linux was not designed for your mother, grandmother or little sister.

    It was designed to provide a secure, stable, reliable operating system.

    Linux is used primarily as servers to provide services such as websites, email, file/print services, etc.

    In recent years, it has been growing steadily in popularity. As a result, people have wanted to use it as a desktop.

    You can set up a Linux box for your family members and they will use if for years without problems. However, if you want them to do advanced stuff, Windows or a Mac may be a better option.

    That is the harsh reality of life. Linux is really a powerful server software. I find it easy to use and so do many others. However, you need to spend some time learning how to use it.

    Perhaps it is not for everybody.


    My other bottom line is this... Linux people keep complaining that software manufacturers aren't porting their software for the linux o/s and hardware manufactureres aren't releasing linux compatible drivers.
    Hmmm... Linux developers tend to write the applications that we need. You will find a lot of Linux alternatives to popular Windows products. Some companies such as 3Com produce Linux drivers. Linux programmers write much of the drivers we need.

    People like me who can't write programmes, help out on forums like this one.

    Linux is growing in popularity among companies. It may be in your best interest to learn it.
    Last edited by jamrock; Jul 31, 2006 at 08:07 PM.

  4. #24
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    Here is someone with some nice explanations though. Seems many of my arguments may be invalid. But I still say CLI is vital.
    http://www.igeek.com/articles/OS/CommandLines.txt
    If I can't do something with command line then I go for the GUI. What gui is faster than
    Code:
    cat textfile > /dev/usb/lp0
    ?
    Someone once wrote "figuring out solutions to your own problems is one way of supporting open source." I agree.

    PS I finished reading the above link and what he saying is not sound to me. Does he know that the command line now is not the command line before GUI and that the GUI now existed more than 2 years before the present CLI?
    Last edited by carey; Jul 31, 2006 at 08:14 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamrock
    Good article.

    Linux has stripped down distros designed for use with firewalls. The Smoothwall installation is simple and to the point. There are no extra features. Every function is related to the job of being a firewall.

    Perhaps it would be possible to develop a desktop Linux. No DNS server capabilites, no Samba server capabilities, no mail server capabilities. Just features required to make a desktop work.

    I must add that I don't want anyone messing with the distros I use as servers. Those work fine for me. Anyone with networking training/experience can use them.
    I agree with some of your proposals, however in the interest of things "getting done right the first time", I would want to see a better non-graphical interface for distros being advertised as "Server" versions.

    If anyone here has experience with any of SCO's recent Unix versions (OpenServer, UnixWare), you know the value of their console tool "scoadmin". It's a rock-solid textmode menu-driven system that allows you to administer almost every aspect of the system without ever having to click a mouse. All you do is navigate the menus with the Arrow and Enter keys and you manage user accounts, software packages, mail system, firewall, network configurations, disk configurations, view logs, etc.

    The true debate is graphical versus text-mode. You will always have an interface, but depending on its design, it may be very intuitive or terribly difficult.
    Last edited by JA2; Jul 31, 2006 at 08:32 PM.
    If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain
    - Morpheus, "The Matrix"

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JA2
    If anyone here has experience with any of SCO's recent Unix versions (OpenServer, UnixWare), you know the value of their console tool "scoadmin". It's a rock-solid textmode menu-driven menu system that allows you to administer almost every aspect of the system without ever having to click a mouse. All you do is navigate the menus with the Arrow and Enter keys and you manage user accounts, software packages, mail system, firewall, network configurations, disk configurations, view logs, etc.
    Something like this is exactly what most OS need. That way you can get more done with little resource use, especially when being done remotely.

  7. #27
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    Why the fight over using a mouse?? If you can agree to the use of menus using the arrow keys then u can should have no trouble accepting that a pointing device is a must in current Information Technology - its just faster to click rather than navigate using arrow keys. Combination of clicking, & hotkeys is even faster.

    The argument supporting CLI is that it mimics normal programming codes. But that can't hold up with people who use 2 fingers to type and MUST look at every keystroke they press. Its just not user friendly.

    I use CLI alot in Windows...basically, 'Run' is my CLI cause every program i run is done from there. Is fast for me cause i'm an experienced techy whose years of experience has taught me which commands run which programs.
    In the GUI it tries to do things like present your choices, interpret user behavior, and make the users life easier. The CLI assumes that everyone is a programmer, who will memorize all possible commands, and variants and variables/attributes for each commands, and then run those little programs to make the computer do what they want. This is fine if you're a programmer and think like a programmer, but kinda sucks if you're a user that just wants to USE the computer.
    CLI is vital...I can't think of any way of replacing it.
    The trouble with learning from experience
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    the lesson afterwards

  8. #28
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    Once again i am going to say, that i am advocating for linux, i love the o/s and i think its one of the best things since sliced bread...

    @Carey - I know that you cant get rid of the command line, there is no way for us to get rid of the command line, but what i am trying to say is that, we shouldnt be using too much of the command line. The way i see it, the command line should only be left up to the techsaavy who want to remember the 500 commands you need to do things. How many people you know want to remember 500 commands, most people are frustrated with just knowing the first 20 elements of the period table of elements, much less 500 different commands? But yet you say this isn't ancient?

    As JA2 said for somebody running a server (the techsaavy) bring on the CLI, but for the guy who just wants to install word on his computer, why should he have to go through this long drawn out process which he might have to start over, cause he forgot to put a - or a . at the right place.

    I dont know if you work, or if you go to school. But if your boss/teacher came to you tomorrow and said, hey carey you can either use this method to solve the program which involves throwing a brick against a wall and which you can get tips from a much 500 million people on how to do it just in case its still too hard for you...
    Or use this method which involves typing out when you threw the brick, how you threw the brick, why you threw the brick, where you threw the brick and who told you to throw the brick and by the way you can only call on about a million people 3/4 (according to a post above) of which thinks this method is much better and should only be used by the l337 and therefore will not want to give you tips on how to use this method and the other 200,000 are too busy trying to build the bricks to throw against the wall and therefore only have 50,000 people to ask 40,000 of which are n00bs and are just as lost as you and the other 10 grand give you answers which you still dont understand, which means basically figure it out yourself.... which method do you choose?

    Also you said it for yourself, greed is the reason why drivers arent made available for open source and that is true, why would you give out the chance to make a extra million dollars, just for a handful of people? That's not a businesslike way to think.

    And with the last thing you said, do you realize that recent gas stoves and electric stoves are similar in use? you dont even need a matches to light a gas stove anymore, you know why? Cause gas stove manufacturers realize they were losing their market because its too time consuming and unsafe to be lighting matches while kerosene is being let out of the stove. And therefore made it easier for the User by making the interface as simple as possible


    @Jamrock - Ok linux wasn't initially designed for my grandmother, mother or little sister, but the fact remains that right now data security is important to everybody not just Scotiabank and Microsoft but even down to ma little sister who wants to make sure the 500 page essay she wrote about the history of the Taino (arawaks) doesnt get hacked by John Brown and he brings it in before her and gets the higher grade. Grandma wants to know that while she is searching for apple pie recipes online the computer wont crash and some blue screen somes up saying all this garbage she would rather not even read.

    Which is why people want a secure, stable, reliable operating system. Why do you want to keep linux for yourselves? Why dont you want to give everybody that feeling that you get knowing that the biggest problem you will have with the o/s is worrying whether JPS goin cut off the light. All Linux users (myself included) advocate that linux is the best o/s in the world, but yet the numbers prove otherwise... Toyota says they are the most reliable car in the world... guess what, if you look outside your window right now and look at the road you will see at least 3 toyota's drive pass within 20 seconds you know why, because they are. Anybody who says they are the best normally has a huuuge backing stating why they are the best. If linux was the best then why aren't i using a linux box right here at this technology company that i work?

    Linux will go nowhere if it is not made for the layman, and will be stuck at this same point for many more years until somebody either buys it out and commercializes it (as is happening now) and sells it for $2000 or we the linux community keep it free by actually designing something that isnt just for Mr. Iamthetechlord
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  9. #29
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    Also i rea dyour article on powershell... do you realize what powershell is made for? Or the features of powershell? Let me copy from the webpage

    * A C#-like scripting language with many power user features such as direct support for hashtables, switch statements that can case on regular expressions, array slicing and anonymous methods (script blocks) that can be stored as data and then later executed. That is in addition to the normal scripting language features such as looping (for/foreach/while), conditionals (if/switch), variable scoping (global/script/local/private) and the abililty to define functions.
    * Cmdlets all inherit certain options, allowing the user to choose things such as the level of interaction and how to deal with errors — including a "suspend" feature, which allows the user to enter a new command shell, investigate a problem, and then continue with the original command. A simple mechanism is built-in for the programmer to define the prompts to be shown in such circumstances. Cmdlets that produce side-effects support the options: -WHATIF and -CONFIRM. -WHATIF informs the user what would have happened but no action takes place. -CONFIRM informs the user what is about to happen and allows the user to control whether it takes place or not.
    * An extensible provider model provides not only access to and manipulation of the file system but also other hierarchical stores. For instance, PowerShell comes with a registry provider that allows access to the registry via the "HKLM" and "HKCU" hives. With this, the registry can be browsed by executing commands like "dir HKLM:\SOFTWARE\Microsoft" at the shell prompt. PowerShell comes with providers for the certificate store as well as environment variables, shell variables, local certification store, functions and aliases. Like cmdlets, the provider model is extensible, allowing third parties to create their own provider model and snap it into PowerShell.
    * The command-line options are generally whole words, but can be specified as the minimum number of letters necessary (e.g. the option -show-detailed-information could be entered as -s if no other option began with 's')
    * Comprehensive, user-extendable, tab completion features. The cmd.exe shell in current versions of Windows can only complete file or directory names, in contrast to the advanced completion in shells such as bash and zsh.
    * The ability to assign the output of a command to a variable, which will then be an object or array of objects inspectable in any way desired.
    Where here does it say that, to install your favourite games you will go into powershell and type the proper commands? Or The average user will be using powershell at least 60% of the time while he is using this o/s?
    Laptop: HP DV6700t - Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5Ghz, 3GB RAM, Nvidia 8400m GS, 250GB HDD. Ubuntu 12.04 and Windows 7
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skillachi
    Where here does it say that, to install your favourite games you will go into powershell and type the proper commands? Or The average user will be using powershell at least 60% of the time while he is using this o/s?
    this is utter bs. you need to read the latest issue of tux. linux is among one of the easiest to install applicatiosn on today. all distro's come with a package manager, or other tools like apt-get, suse with yast, fedora and rpm based distro's with yum. all you generally gotta do is search for your app name double click click install and you done. whats difficult in that. majority of the usefull apps that the everyday smoe gonna want are in repositories so dont over do it and make it look like youalways gotta run to the terminal.. its an age old argument that i'm tired of hearing. wanna know what sends you to the terminal, development modules for your system, intense customizing of your system. but to install an app hardly, and in the event that your first option fails (using a package manager) you download the source and all you gotta do is

    untar it (unzip it)
    configure it with the configure script which produces the makefile
    make the make file and then make install it

    and honestly anybody that can type and can remember themown name should be able to do that so there

    p.s one thing i have noticed lot of new linux users make it hard onthem self, or rather low level linux users i was in this statistic as well, and its with good reason becasue they wanna learn to really use the os, i can bet you dos omethings from terminal that you really dont have to, i dont make compressed packages from giu, i dont install anything from the gui package manager. you get the gist of what i'm saying.
    Last edited by death_knight; Aug 2, 2006 at 03:43 PM.

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