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Thread: The True Nature of God

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    Default The True Nature of God

    Please look here to see how this discussion started. All related posts are being moved here.
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    Matronyx, I'm gonna have to tackle you on that one...

    ...May the Gods of TechJ forgive me for what I'm about to do....

    Matronyx, to say that God chooses is erroneous. To choose, is to decide between options for which you can control only one. Can you see why it's erroneous? To assign the concept of choice to God is erroneous because God is the embodiment of everything. He doesn't need to choose. How do you choose to become or do something when you're already everything? Can you see the logical fallacy?

    God is absolute Actuality. He contains absolutely NO potentiality. In other words, God doesn't have the potential to become something else. He is everything that can possibly exist (even things that don't yet exist). Therefore, to say that God chooses is fallacious.

    Yes He knew that Adam would sin. Yes He knew that Lucifer would defy him. Yes he knew that the Children of Israel would sin against him a multiplicity of times. But where you made the mistake Matronyx, is to assign human properties to God (as owen rightly said). When the Bible says that God was vexed in his heart over the people's sin, do you think that God himself was actually vexed?

    The human perception of God is limited, so we assign the countenance of wrath to His response of punishing the people for their sin. God isn't angry today, and happy tomorrow. He is EVERYTHING at the same time, everytime, forever. Our limited understanding of God is what leads us to believe that God can be angry at one point, and pleased at another. These are just HUMAN PERCEPTIONS. Human perceptions, like Mathematics, and science, help us to understand God. But they are still inherently and fundamentally flawed because they are based on a system of limits.

    We cannot use a system of limits to describe God. God is infinite, and therefore, only infinity can describe him. Humans lack the language necessary to describe God (since no human language embraces infinity). So we should just accept Him for what he is and move on with life.

    The truth of the matter Matronyx is that since God is the embodiment of all that is - He also embodies evil. Yes, I said it. Evil came from God too. He created Lucifer full knowing well that Lucifer would become the devil. Did God want this? Yes. He created humans full knowing well that they would sin against him. Did he want this? Yes. God created evil as much as he created good:

    I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.

    [NIV]

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    [KJV]

    - Isaiah 45:7

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    So why did God create evil? Simple. For His own glory. He created Angels to worship him. He created man to worship him. The difference between Angels and man however, is that man can choose. When man chooses to serve God, God gets the greater glory out of it than when Angels are preprogrammed to glorify him. There are Angels in heaven called Seraphims which sit around the throne in Heaven and all they do is perpetually cry "Holy Holy" for all eternity. That's their purpose. They serve no other function.

    However, when man chooses to cry "Holy, Holy", he is acting through his own free will, and not through predestination - there is a flipside to this, but I don't want to open up a can of worms here..... ;D

    You must remember, choice is an illusion between those who have power, and those who don't. Therefore, to say that God chooses, is to imply that God's power is limited. The bottomline is:

    God doesn't choose. God wills. There is a BIG difference.

    So let us refrain from assigning human qualities to God. All we should do is worship Him without questioning his motives. For we don't have the capacity to understand His motives anyway - as that would be a pointless waste of time.

    Besides, I'd much rather waste brain cells contemplating new technological trends and enjoying the fruits of life (cars, money, wimmen, 'puters, moviez, gamez) than trying to wrap my brain around something I will never understand. Don't y'all agree? ;D

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    Before we go into the discussion, let some things be clear:

    1 - God is All-Knowing
    2 - God is All-Powerful
    3 - God is All-Present
    4 - God never changes

    Ok. Now that we have those definitions out of the way, let's proceed to the meat of the matter.

    CAUTION: Opening up a can of worms You have been warned. Take the red pill and continue reading. I will show you how deep the rabbit hole goes - just make sure you can handle the truth! ;D
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    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    Funny, I chose to wear my sandals this morning over my sneakers. I know I had control over that.
    - You choose because you're a product of the universe. God is the author of the universe. He doesn't need to choose. He wills, or predestinates (same thing). Since he is the author of all things, He can decide how the story should go and how the story should end, before the story is even written. That's why there is PROPHECY

    Now for:
    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    Remember that God chose the people of Israel.
    He even chose their kings. The bible says so. 1 Kings 8:14
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    Are you saying that he would have chosen David to be king regardless of the man's actions? That would be contrary to what the bible says.
    - Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. You must remember that the Bible is Man's interpretation of God's inspiration. To man, it would Appear that God chose. But before creation, God had already scripted it that the Children of Israel would be His people. He had already scripted it that David would be king. There is no alternate universe of possibilities with God. Everything is linear. Everything is predestinated. This is why we say that God is all-knowing. If that were not the case, then He would not be God. Again, He doesn't choose. He predestinates.

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    Did you know that God can change his outlook on people? Yes, he did so in regard to the Ninevites, the people Jonah was commisioned to preach to.
    - Wrong again. If God changes at all, then he is not God. Because according to one of the primary definitions of God (see beginning of post), he is UNCHANGING. Therefore, like I had said before, God PREDESTINATES. Everything else is perceived as otherwise, so that we as humans can relate to Him. If we were to accept that God can change, then how could we trust Him? That would mean that if we pray to God and ask for something, He could be like:

    - "Ok Matronyx, I'll give you that tricked out car and tricked out PC that you asked for"

    and then just before getting the stuff....

    - "Y'know Matronyx? I don't think I want to give you those things. Instead, I want to give you a puppy and a yo-yo, how's that?"

    Recall from my previous post:

    God is the embodiment of everything that is and everything that isn't. He is PURE actuality. He cannot become something else other that what he is - which happens to be everything that is.

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    What we as humans experience is merely a SUBSET of what God is. But that SUBSET is all that we can perceive. We cannot perceive the WHOLE of what God is. That's a concept that cannot be measured in terms we can understand. Therefore, in writing the Bible, God was given human-like properties so that we could make some sense of what He is and relate to Him on some personal level.

    Without the Bible, we would be totally perplexed as to the concept of God, ergo, we would never believe that a concept of an all unifying force in the universe could possibly exist. Logic dictates that there is a God, even without the necessary assistance of the Bible. The Bible merely defines the personality of this all unifying power so that we can relate to Him.

    Did you know That the Bible's definition of God, was actually coined HUNDREDS of years before the Bible existed, by a Grecian philosopher named Aristotle? What you read in the Bible, particularly in the writings of St. Paul and many others, is not something that was coined by those men. They were relying on their knowledge gained at Plato's Academy, which was established hundreds of years before they came around. So don't think that the Bible is the AUTHOR of the definition of God. In fact, I dare say, the Bible, as far as this definition is concerned, is regurgitating old information.

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    Are you saying that to feel regret is an abilty belonging only to humans?
    What about love?
    - God is everything Matronyx. Love, hate, war, peace, light, darkness - God embodies everything. Therefore, yes, ofcourse God can love. But the same God can Hate. But how can the same God which loves also hate? Even more so, how can He hate the very thing which he had once professed to loving so much? How could He even turn his back on his own son when he was on the cross? Is this not a contradiction? What kind of GOD does that?! ???

    If you accept God on such a low level, you are GOING to have problems relating him to someone who doesn't already blindly and unquestionably believe in God. The thing is Matronyx, is that before we can accept God as is defined on the surface level in the Bible, we have to understand WHO and WHAT God is.

    Without this understanding, the Bible is a book of contradictions!!!

    It is for this very same reason why people are always in a position to HATE God, because they cannot understand how such a LOVING God could allow such HATRED, WAR, PAIN and SUFFERING to happen to people. It is for this same reason, why many people NEVER convert to Christianity, because they don't understand why such a LOVING God, could toss the very same people His Son died for into the fiery oblivion of Hell. Again, for this very same reason, why many Christians are seen as nothing more than mindless religious zealots (the truth is, many of them are) - because they don't even understand what they're talking about!

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    We need to more than just say that GOD IS LOVE. That is simply not enough. For that Definition was coined by MAN to get people to accept God. That worked for a time. But when people started to become smarter, simple jingles like "God is Love" are no longer effective. Because if God is love, there are too many references in the Bible which would allude to otherwise.

    For example, remember in the book of Judges where the children of Israel were lead to the mass annihilation of many major cities? THOUSANDS of people were killed! Entire races were DECIMATED! This was the very first ETHNIC cleansing, and it was AUTHORIZED by God! If God is love, why would he lead his "chosen" people to wantonly and indiscriminately slaughter so many THOUSANDS of people like that? IS THIS THE DEFINITION of a GOD OF LOVE?

    puh-leese... :

    God is much, MUCH more than just Love. If everyone believes that God is Love - fullstop, then they have automatically chopped off everything else that God is and left it orphanised with no explanation. That's how people frequently find themselves asking the qestion: "how can a Good God allow suffering to good people?" Until people realise that God embodies everything, they will always have unanswered questions.

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    The bible clearly said that God felt regret over creating humans and thus he brought the flood on wicked mankind. Genesis 6:6
    - Here's another contradiction. At the beginning of the scripture, after creating each phase of reality, God thought that "it was good". Now, remember that this was AFTER he cast Satan out of heaven. Satan was residing on earth BEFORE the earth was formed out of the void. Now, I ask you this: How can God say that IT WAS GOOD, if he created the earth, knowing FULL well, that satan and His dark angels were already there? Does this make sense to you? Does the Bible's definition of God choosing, or the Devil choosing fit into this puzzle? Isn't it absolutely obvious that, THIS WAS A PART OF THE PLAN?

    Quote Originally Posted by matronyx
    In regard to him knowing that Satan would be rebellious.... just examine what you know about God and think about that. Evil cannot be created from good.
    John 8:44 shows that Satan was once in the truth. Satan chose to leave the truth. He was created perfect just as how Jesus was created perfect.
    - So lemme ask you this, Do you believe that God is all-knowing? If your answer is Yes, then I have a question for you:

    If God is all-knowing, then WHY did he create Lucifer? Didn't He already KNOW that Lucifer would rebel against him? Didn't he already know that Lucifer would tempt man and lead him into Sin? Didn't God KNOW these things before they happened?

    .....AAAAAH!

    As for evil not coming from good, you are right! ;D (1 point for Matronyx!)

    But who told you that God is Good? I'm not saying that God is evil either. Both definitions are fundamentally WRONG!

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    Since God is all-powerful, BOTH Good and Evil came from Him. Therefore Matronyx, I don't EVER want to hear you say to me that God is GOOD - you're insulting my intelligence and everyone else you tell this to ;D - . That definition is insufficient. The correct definition is:

    God is ALL.

    He is everything I want. He is everything I need. He is everything that I wish I could be. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end. He is the author and finisher of my faith. He is the only reason for which I live. He defines me and guides me where ever he wills. He supplies my EVERY need because he is ALL that is and will ever be. God is ALL! God is EVERYTHING!

    No doubt this will irk many Christian believers. This is because they are inclined to believe that such a statement is simply saying that God is every little spec of dust they come accross. Not true. The expanded statement says that:

    God is responsible for all things in the universe. The universe is merely a lower level emanation of God.

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    Default Re:The Philosophical Corner: The True Nature of God

    I would like to point out to you that knowledge of the existence of predestination does not impact on our daily decisions. For we do not know our decisions before we make them. Therefore we cannot reason predestination as we do not know the mind of God. Therefore any attempted debunking of the theory of predestination is instantaneaously fallacious. If we could smother the mind of God, then we could in effect, reliably tell the future in remarkable detail and be 100% correct. But since we can't, predestination remains undisputed. You need to look beyond the confines of the Bible Matronyx and see the greater universe that the Bible was created to guide us to understand.

    Ok, Tronyx (and everybody else), hack 'n slash away ;D - I'll be back in a few days to read it. 8)

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