Is Jamaican University IT Education Good Enough?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

[quote author=deakie link=board=28;threadid=2044;start=0#msg20600 date=1066329771]
as a result, in the field of science and engineering, the numbers attending those courses are falling off dramatically. industry doesnt want to address the issues of training. hence, getting a job first time up is hard. once in the students see the hawkish behaviour and become just as hawkish by moving companies every 6 to 18 months. this gaurantees their training in areas which are different but related.

few companies will take the time to setup a training package and will always quote the movement issue as a reason why not to. idiots! dont they know if they train they will have the best clamouring to get in? see their shortsightedness.
as a result, the more capable head for the americas or to companies from abroad to work. these companies enjoy the benefit of having workers who are loyal because of the on going development of staff. these companies also do better in the market place as they have competent ppl working for them.

in britain the engineer and scientist are not well payed as they are seen as regular joes.
in the americas and the rest of europe, they are highly trained and competent ppl who are commanding salaries that are only beaten by lawyers and doctors. imagine.....lawyers, that bunch of lying toerags....hehehehe

i expect its the same in JA.
[/quote]

Some companies out here operate in the same ways deekie. There are some "IT Solution Providers" who don't bother to train their "Engineers" on the technologies they are contracted to implement for thier clients. Their "Engineers" turn up at a client site with the <Insert technology here> for Dummies book in hand and learns how to setup the thing at that time.
Those "IT Solution Providers" always moan that if you train people, they will leave. As a result of that mentality, there a whole lot botched IT solution implementations around, and it has given the local IT community a really bad rep.

Looking at things from a graduates perspective, in a market where jobs are tough to come by, you'd want to have an education that really does prepare you to go out and get a job to pay off the student loan you just took out for the degree. Incorporating more practical programmes into the curriculums adds value and makes the grad more competitive. However, this does not absolve companies from training their staff.Having trained and knowledgable staff is a critical factor for success of the business.

[keno]

These conversations are quite good. UWI, though not having alot of practical courses, does a fairly good job at theory in IT based items. I for one believe the theory is just as important as the practical, actually it is more important as it allows one to explore beyond what is already in place. Having courses with more practical course is all good and well but all that teaches you is how something is already done and u just repeat. With theory you now what the foundations are for that thng working how it works and you can think of new ways to make it work. This is something I think in Ja we have a problem with. Nobody really thinks about how to do stuff and try to do it another way except when we want to get it free or work around the system. Hence or lack of more innovation.

Having practical skills is all good and well. Yes, it will get you a job and get you paid but have you ever been doing your job and feel that there must be an easier way? ... This is where the theory comes in and with a little bit of effort you can devise a new and easier way of doing things. You see, with theory, you are given a solid foundation on how to grow. With practical, you are given a static foundation of how to do something. Tech changes and hence so does the method of doing something. If you only know that you have to turn a lever left to get something going, then you will be completely out of it when the lever is removed and there is still a way to have that thing work.

To summarize ... we need both theory and practical in our universities but theory is very important, do not under rate it! A lot of people dont like the theory because it may be boring, etc, etc ... but just think of what Ja would be like if every person that considers themself an IT Professional actually understood more about what is actually happening with the things we use everyday, namely computers.

We would have less complaints about Windows blue screening and horror calls and we would have some of us hacking into the Unix kernel to find its vulnerabilities just for the fascination of learning how the kernel works ... then we could give India some competiton for the Global IT Market Workers.

Anyway, you guys just got a core dump from my processing unit so debug it and see what you can find anything in its contents

Peace out

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Good points keno.

I guess you have to factor in what kinds of jobs graduates are going into. One would not expect that a graduate with little practical experience is going to be managing production servers with millions of dollars of data right away, but after they've gotten some practical experience they could - and then they can be in a better position to effect improvements after they've understood what it's all about.

You can't separate the theory from the practical and be successful.

The practical is what proves the theory.

[Xenocrates]

This discussion is an adequate reminder that the University of Technology is making some very serious strides toward the more useful end of the Technological yardstick. One cannot discount the University of the West Indies either. However, for a first degree in the IT field, I believe that the University of Technology has a far more suitable degree program. However, I will not dare to make such a comparison without stating facts, as facts are what separates truth from fiction. My cousin and I are both in the same years at either University doing the very same degree program and based on our course outline, I will break down the course contents on a year by year basis.

Since there are many similarities between the Universities, I will only outline in detail those done @ Utech and make comparisons for UWI. The courses outlined for UWI are CORE courses. UWI's degree program is very elective-centric. Meaning that students choose additional courses to do based on credits required for passing the course. UWI functions more like a traditional US university while UTECH functions more like a Liberal Arts University. The difference is that UWI gives students more freedom to choose courses they wish to pursue from year 1. UTECH's course outline is more stringent, and only relaxes in the second semester of the 3rd year (as do Liberal Arts universities). Additionally, UWI students can double major. UTECH students can't. However, UTECH students will graduate more well rounded than UWI students (since UWI allows students to choose what courses they want to do in addition to core courses.) That means 90% of the time, UWI students are inclined to choose any course that will make up the credit requirements based on difficulty level. That makes for an easier university experience than at UTECH, but graduates are less likely to be useful in the work world after graduation.

Please bear this in mind.

[Xenocrates]

Freshman Year

UTECH

UWI

Introduction to computing systems (Theory) - Historical update on computer systems, where they are coming from, how they're being used etc. This course is only for those who enter UTECH without IT at the CXC level or Computer Science at either O or A level. Introduction to programming (Theory) - Shows students how to think like a programmer. No programming language is used here. Students are taught how to implement flowcharts, pseudocode and how to apply these techniques logically. This course is quintessential for the rest of the years at Utech. Core Mathematics (A Level Pre-Calculus) Networking (Theory w. Practicals on building networks from scratch) - Now includes using Linux to build entire networking solutions. Excellent! ;D Advanced Information Technology (Using Productivity Tools, building webpages, Enterprise Systems) Introduction to C All practical - students are taught core concepts (such as Iteration, Arrays, Strings, Pointers, Structures, Files & Streams, Interfaces, Operations etc) and given room to explore other facets of the language so as interfacing with physical memory and the hard disk, tapping into video memory, driver creation etc... Electronics - Theory & Practical. Students are taught all the basics of electronics and are taught how to physically build electronic circuits in the labs. Quite a fun class I must add - soldering capacitors, diodes, leds, resistors, electronic pathways etc to a circuit board to build transformers, radios, inductors and a whole shebang of really cool stuff. We also got to build memory circuits (that simulate how DIMMs work) using Integrated Circuits which we have to determine how to use based on their internal sequential logic gate circuitry.) Again I say, VERY fun course! ;D Environmental Studies - Environmental awareness course. Now mandatory for all tertiary institutions. Communication Theory - Basic writing skills are developed here. Discrete Mathematics - Sets, Notations, entity relations, induction, etc. etc.

Introduction to Computer Science (I & II) - All theory. But all of the concepts taught in UTECH's C Programming course and Data Structures course (Year II) are taught here in meticulous detail - just without practical application. This is not done until Second semester Year II. I must add that these courses lean more heavily towards abstract mathematics than programming. Introductory Physics (A & B) - Same thing as UTECHs Electronics course - minus the fun part: The Labs. It's all theory. Basic Mathematics (A & B) - Same thing as UTECHs Core Mathematics + Probability & Statistics courses.

[Xenocrates]

Sophomore Year

UTECH

UWI

Probability & Statistics (Theory) - Pretty self explanatory Data Structures - Practical implementation of concepts such as Stacks, Queues, Linked Lists, Binary Trees etc. in the C programming language (the course is primarily practical) and algorithm analysis techniques such as the Big Oh notation, sorting & searching algorithms (quick, merge, insert, heap, binary etc) and rating algorithms based on Asymptotic orders of complexity. This is actually done in Year I at UWI, but without the pratical application. DBMS (I & II) - This course is part theory and part practical. First semester is all theory, where students learn all of the concepts sorrounding databases and how to use SQL to build databases on paper based on ER notations and DATABASE arithmetic. The second semester allows students to actually build and query databases from scratch in the labs using what was learned in Sem 1 using Access and Visual Basic. Then students have to build a fully implementable database (complete with user interface) to show-off their understanding of the concepts. Incredibly useful course - especially for the working world. Advanced Communication Skills / Business Communication - Students are taught APA methodology of writing theses (for final year degrees) and for creating professional documents in the real world. Skills acquired here will be subsequently used for all assignments in the coming years. Object Oriented Programming using C++ - Delves into Inheritance, Polymorphism, Overloading, Exception Handling.... the works. All practical. Students not only understand how the concepts work on paper, but they can put it into practice to see how it can solve real world applications. The final project required students to use these concepts to build fully featured Relational Database Management System complete with a graphical user interface - all in C++. That means, the system should emulate Database functions such as Relational Integrity, Event Handling, Cascading Update / Deletion etc... Quite a challenging course. 8) Calculus - Can you say Gradient on a Curve? Partial Fractions? Area under a curve? Second derivatives? 'Nuff said ;D Psychology - Perhaps one of the most exciting courses (second to electronics) Computer Logic & Digital Design - All practical. Students build logic sequential circuits using a software called Electronic Workbench. The course takes the concept a little further by allowing students to build and simulate real world circuits such as: Memory (DIMMs/ SIMMs), CPUs, Cache, Adder-Subtracter Bit shifting Registers - the whole works. Massive brain expansion required. A Free Non-computing Elective. It should be pretty obvious (from my other posts) which elective I did ;D

Digital Logic & Computer Architectures - Everything done in the UTECH course of similar name, minus the lab applications (which take up most of the UTECH course). Discrete Mathematics for Computer Science - Same as course done in Year 1 @ UTECH, However, the UWI course is far more sophisticated, delving into the domains of algorithms, Eulerian and Hamiltonian circuits and a whole list of higher level abstract mathematics. Utech's Comp Sci degree courses either does not touch some of these concepts (because they are more useful for Engineering students) or merges them on a primal level with courses in the third year. Either way, UTECH's mathematics degree courses are simply no match for those at UWI. Comparing Utech's math courses to those at UWI is like comparing a bicycle with a Mercedes Benz. U get the idea. Information Structures & Algorithms - Same thing as UTech's Data Structures course - but with a heavier leaning towards mathematics. Utech's course concentrates more on PRACTICAL programming applications of these concepts. UWI's course uses no practical application, except on paper. As such UWI's course delves into slightly more sophisticated representation techniques. However, again, there is no practical demonstration of how these techniques can be useful in the real world. This is not to say that they aren't, they ARE, it's just that UTECH students will know HOW to apply these concepts in the real world. UWI students won't. Then again, UTECH students won't delve into the mathematical concepts as deeply as do UWI students. You should decide which is more useful to you as a potential student, the mathematical theory or the practical application. Systems Programming - Unfortunately, based on my cousin's elaboration, this course allows students to actually build a fully featured systems solution. They are not taught any programming languages (aside from very basic C) and they are not taught any application techniques. Students have to learn all of these on their own. At UTECH, students are always building systems solutions. Therefore, you will find a lot of UWI students at UTECH's summer programming courses trying to learn languages such as C/C++, Java, Visual Basic/C++, .NET, pHp etc. so that they can complete this course at UWI. I find this curiously amusing. I had to actually help my cousin complete this course as he didn't know jack about programming. However, why would UWI have this course without any practical courses to back it up? I am totally befuddled ???

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Xeno, having gone through the UWI track a while back, I must say that the level of exposure to practical application of the theory learned in certain courses was heavily dependent on the lecturers personality, and the nature of the students.

I remember the Digital Logic and Computer Architectures course I took at the time had a new lecturer who had not taught that course before. He was revolutionary, and made the practical applications of the subject very clear. I remember spirited discussions as we disected the qualities of the Intel, AMD, Cyrix and IBM chips. Many of us in class were building our first PC's back then and that class just messed beautifully with the research and analysis we have to do when we figure out what hyped up parts we're gonna put in our PC's and why. We had to design circuits using Diglog (FREE WITH LINUX ;D). Come to think of it...he was a big advocate of Linux. Pity he got fed up with UWI and left. :-\

I've found the programming courses to be decent (if you can get past some of the boring lectures). The projects gave you a chance to put the theory to use - I remember building memory management simulations for the Systems Programming course as well as UNiX file managers and other utilities. I've seen projects for encryption/decryption programmes coming out of that course too.

But there's more to IT than programming, and that's where UWI starts to fall short. Programmers coming out of UWI don't have much problems I think...they get a very good programming experience. But for the rest of the population who aren't as keen on coding, UWI didn't expose you to much else. I'd like to see some courses on things like Systems Administration/Management (foreign Universities have similar courses) which impart best practices and expose students to some of the environments they may encounter in the field.

And I still can't get over the fact that I went through a Networking course, and not once did the lecturer bring in a Network card, cable, or NOS to show us what all the calculations were about (not even a traceroute or a ping made it to class).

Most of the practical experience at UWI was gained by students, in the computer labs. If you were fortunate enough to get a part time job at one of the labs, there you could see how the things you learned in class were actually relevant. That was where it all came together. 8)

[Nastrodamus]

Interesting....

Does anyone know the IMP/IMS tract for their new BSc in Computer Studies (Informational Technology)? Is it accredited like their diploma course? What is the advantage and disadvantage if IMS/IMP vs UTECH or UWI?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

[quote author=Nastrodamus link=board=28;threadid=2044;start=15#msg21547 date=1067372408]
Interesting....

Does anyone know the IMP/IMS tract for their new BSc in Computer Studies (Informational Technology)? Is it accredited like their diploma course? What is the advantage and disadvantage if IMS/IMP vs UTECH or UWI?
[/quote]

Check http://www.imsjm.com for info on the programmes offered by IMS/IMP

They basically facillitate the degree programmes from foreign universities like FIU and UFL.
So if you do an MSc. in Computer Engineering from UFL at IMP, it's the same degree you would get if you flew up to Florida and took the courses there. Internationally recognized and accredited.

The advantage of this is that you can get a "foreign" degree while living in Jamaica and you only have to pay the cost of the academic programme (not boarding, airfare etc.) and you can be working while studying (however this presents it's own unique challenges).

Also, many of the lecturers are internationally recognized and acclaimed (you've used some of their text books in school). So having that kind of exposure is great. They actually fly down to conduct the courses.

The disadvantage is that it costs more than a degree from UWI/UTECH.

I know a few people currently doing the BSc. from FIU @IMS and they report that it is good.
The courses are challenging and the lecturers are very good.

[Xenocrates]

Junior Year

UTECH

UWI

Computer Organisation & Assembly - This is possibly one of UTech's the flagship courses. This is an extension of the Digital Logics course done in Freshman year. Here students learn how to physically build PCs from scratch. They learn about form factors, voltage stepping, overclocking, advanced bit-shifting for logic circuits, building complex registers using micromodules such as adder/subtractors, decoders, multiplexors, demultiplexors, carry-lookahead adders - the works. Additionally, students are taught how to program using Assembly (Machine) Language. VERY Cool ;D The syllabus of this course succintly follows that of the A+ Certification course, but in more detail. So if you are planning on doing A+ certification, you can actually do this course at UTech and with some additional reading, pass your A+ exams. Advanced Programming With Java - This takes programming to the ultimate level. Students are now building applications that make use of multi-threading, networking, cross-platform interoperability and building graphical user interfaces. Final project includes building Internet Communication utilities using the client / server model. Analysis of Algorithms - In my opinion, this course is an attempt to match UWI's sophisticated mathematical analysis sub-modules. All contents of this course are already covered in great detail in UWI's first year courses. This is admittedly, a brutally difficult course. Some of my colleagues would disagree. Operating Systems - Submodular components of operating systems such as semaphores, scheduling algorithms, file/memory management etc. are studied here. Labs include hands on training in Unix and just very recently (as in like, starting this academic year) hands on training in Linux ;D (We're using Mandrake 9.2). Software Engineering - This is a monster course that lasts all the way into the Senior year. Students learn how to progress through the stages of system analysis, requirements specification, systems design, implementation and maintenance. The main deliverable of this course will determine if students graduate or not. Students are required to build a real fully implementable automated solution and apply it in the REAL world. That means, students have to find a company that will be willing to work with them in the project development. Successful installation of the solution (which occurs in the final year) will determine (in addition to their academic performance) the level of the degree they acquire. So students graduate as fully qualified Systems Analysts. This course has a dual purpose. Not only does it expose students to how a real world system is built and implemented, but it also introduces students to managers and employers out in the working world. 9/10 times Truly successful students actually land a job in the target organisation before graduating. Now that's a damn good university course if you ask me. Research Methodologies - Almost a fusion of mathematics and business communication models, students are familiarised with research methods used to prepare scientific journals. This course is quintessential to the final thesis for both the first and any subsequent degrees the student may progress to. Professional Ethics - The name sez it all. Computing Electives - Students are given a chance to choose a computing elective that is not on the core course outline that leads into their specialisations. Some really good electives have been popping up of late. To name a few, there are such courses as: Network Engineering (follows the MCSE model, and includes issues such as Security risk management and mitigation strategies) System Development (Using the .NET platform) Multimedia (using such tools as the Macromedia suite of programs, including Director and Flash, as well as 3D modelling and animation using Maya and DirectX, additionally, there is Computer Graphics Engineering using Abobe Photoshop and the Corel suite of programs) Web-Development (Students are taught cutting edge tools for pHp, ASP/JSP, CGI, MySQL etc. etc.) Linux Administration (this is a brand new elective that delves deeper into Linux than does the standard Operating Systems course outline). There are many more courses available for students to choose from. This gives 3rd year students the freedom to specialize in whatever field they wish to pursue after graduation. Programmers go into system development. Web-designers go into Web Development. Computer graphics afficionados go into Multimedia (where people are actually coming in to teach Game programming - just started happening this year!) Networking engineers go into the said field. They can actually process to take MCSE exams, with some additional reading, after doing this course. How cool is that? ;D

Operating Systems - Same concepts as those taught at UTECH. What they don't do, is delve as deep into operating systems as does the UTECH course. The UWI course seems to stop at process management. The UTECH course covers Process, Memory, File, Device and User Interface management aspects. They do have labs for this course. I also do know for a fact that Linux training has become a fundamental part of this course as well, even though it is not stipulated on the course outline. However, only enthusiasts will take it to the next level. Kudos to UWI must be made as well in recognition of the transformation of a few of their labs into Linux only labs. That's a bold step forward, and admittedly, something UTECH has yet to do. What I do know, is that it was a friend of mine who was going to UWI at the time that actually facilitated the move to Linux for that particular lab. The only Linux lab that exists at UTECH is used by students specialising in that operating system in their Junior and Final years. Artificial Intelligence - AI concepts such as knowledge based systems, robotics etc. as well as ProLog programming. Information Systems in Organisations - Similar to the Software Engineering course at UTECH, but severely skewed towards a managerial perspective. This course is something more of an advanced Economics class with leanings towards computing. It's intention is more of an awareness strategy for computing students of organisational business models and how computing solutions help make these models more efficient and cost effective. As you can tell, this is a theory only course. Detailed systems analysis and design and real world applications are not a part of this course, (as they are a part of the Software Engineering course at UTech). UTech has a similar course for students doing managerial studies. UWI seems to be more pre-occupied with its computing students having a stronger managerial background than hands-on skills. Apparently, additional skills learned are up to the student (please bear in mind the choice based system @ UWI). Compiler Design - A course that gives students an appreciation of compilers and how they work. Students are required to build their own programming language/compiler at the end of this course. Interesting...