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Thread: Flow LTE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan77791 View Post
    Just Curious though, Will Digicel ever be able to have similar capacity for their LTE Network like Flow?. I mean Digicels primary LTE band gives them excellent penetration and coverage capability. But they suffer in the speed department. What causes this, and how do they get out of this mess. And provide similar speeds to Flows Network.
    Eventually... they did start off with a bad hand and, their current predicament isn't helping either. Digicel would have to undertake a number of seriously innovative initiatives in order to truly compete with FLOW tech wise. Their deployment and site complexity is an entire mess; a far cry from FLOW's simple & elegant multi-mode and 3 band solution - lower site rent and less CAPEX to begin with and far less OPEX thereafter. Moreover, FLOW very clearly did their homework... Garry Sinclair was quoted back in 2014 that LIME did did not view 700 MHz as being far more hardy signal-wise than AWS or PCS band; the band of which FLOW's network was optimally spaced for back in the days of the GSM rollout. They, using the technologies and large financial backative of LILAC, are now able to invest much more readily in mobile especially in Jamaica, one of LILAC's most important markets. FLOW is already speeding ahead with LTE-A with 2CA and is showing signs of maybe going 3CA, 256QAM and/or 4x4 MIMO by year-end or next year. The key to this is rooted in steps beginning in 2013 to reduce headcount, cauterize excess expenditure, diversify equipment vendors, wise spectrum acquisitions among many others. In fact, FLOW had in recent memory (FY 2015/2016) acquired additional PCS spectrum and, in Summer 2016 acquired a full 20 MHz 'block' (AWS-1 blocks D, E & F). All of this happened whilst FLOW had been developing and testing a formidable LTE network throughout 2016... I think it was Digicel's rush to market that led to the issues they have now especially given the fact that all persons in the field know that the strategy that they had before could not carry the traffic they actually had (and still can't); reminds me of Verizon's LTE network in 2011-2012... LTE in just name. Digicel needs to not just embrace technology on the customer facing side but also on the network side of things; I know that Carlton Crescent has something cooking and Ocean Boulevard needs to get moving before it's too late!

    Side Note: The FLOW mobile customer is becoming far more different than the Digicel customer... I'm sure there is data to prove that FLOW customers consume far more data and spend way more than the average Digicel subscriber (which is why I suspect they are selling off spare capacity to entities like Growth Tech). The ostensive focus on increasing ARPU attracts those who want the best data possible, flexibility to roam worldwide and similar value added services to the competition. FLOW can get away with pumping out 170+ Mbit/s over its network because it is shifting its business model to offering low cost per bit with current spectrum endowments; Digicel JUST added ANOTHER Band to their already complex site setup while still running 4 carriers of WCDMA and GSM over 900 MHz & 1800 MHz. INEFFICIENT!
    Last edited by Brandysull; May 28, 2018 at 02:59 AM.

  2. #632
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    FLOW has all that bandwidth and speed yet it ain't translating to increase customer base. They will basically have a graveyard network soon as Digicel seems to be coming fast to hit them out the water.

    I suspect the plan for flow is to start offering services to mobile virtual networks. That would be the only plausible direction to take the company seeing they have the massive bandwidth etc.

    With all their technologies they cant even offer home lte or fixed wireless landline lte. They did something similar in the past by locking the device to the closest 2 towers and am sure they can do it again. However that would make far greater sense than to replace stolen copper for a few dozen businesses.

    Secondly they would anticipate the load since its locked to the tower. Again Brandy go tell Carlon crescent to utilize their partnership with WhatsApp by offering free WhatsApp to all flow users. With digicel u can even use Facebook zero or basic without data plan. Personally even tho I have all the latest devices I don't really like paying extra for speed.

    So speed is nothing to me. I'll pay extra for say social media addon or data nights or 1 day 1 gig addon or unlimited digicel calls on prepaid or free calling to 1 usa number.....that's what makes digicel stands out. Value for money. I never know the day I would actually say I like Digicel services ....its slow but worth it. I can choose addons that suites me. If I want to watch a YouTube video then I can buy a 1 gig addon in nights for 20 jmd.

    FLOW needs a management change. All those persons at the top need to go. This wanton spending on ads and marketing that making no sense. Spending millions on flow lyf and have to change the rates months after making the original ad and offer redundant.

    Same thing they did with everything else. Bmobile,lime c&w mobile and prepaid homefone, talk and save plan,all talk plan.....1 million subscribers new rate,horizon from flow,fiber to the home,lime TV on mobile,landline express,flow fliptop laptop, pepa TV, school crew unlimited plan,$1 incoming call bonus,....all these stuff was launched with a hype then days later cut. Makes me wonder why they still doing the same thing and expecting different results.

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandysull View Post
    Eventually... they did start off with a bad hand and, their current predicament isn't helping either. Digicel would have to undertake a number of seriously innovative initiatives in order to truly compete with FLOW tech wise. Their deployment and site complexity is an entire mess; a far cry from FLOW's simple & elegant multi-mode and 3 band solution - lower site rent and less CAPEX to begin with and far less OPEX thereafter. Moreover, FLOW very clearly did their homework... Garry Sinclair was quoted back in 2014 that LIME did did not view 700 MHz as being far more hardy signal-wise than AWS or PCS band; the band of which FLOW's network was optimally spaced for back in the days of the GSM rollout. They, using the technologies and large financial backative of LILAC, are now able to invest much more readily in mobile especially in Jamaica, one of LILAC's most important markets. FLOW is already speeding ahead with LTE-A with 2CA and is showing signs of maybe going 3CA, 256QAM and/or 4x4 MIMO by year-end or next year. The key to this is rooted in steps beginning in 2013 to reduce headcount, cauterize excess expenditure, diversify equipment vendors, wise spectrum acquisitions among many others. In fact, FLOW had in recent memory (FY 2015/2016) acquired additional PCS spectrum and, in Summer 2016 acquired a full 20 MHz 'block' (AWS-1 blocks D, E & F). All of this happened whilst FLOW had been developing and testing a formidable LTE network throughout 2016... I think it was Digicel's rush to market that led to the issues they have now especially given the fact that all persons in the field know that the strategy that they had before could not carry the traffic they actually had (and still can't); reminds me of Verizon's LTE network in 2011-2012... LTE in just name. Digicel needs to not just embrace technology on the customer facing side but also on the network side of things; I know that Carlton Crescent has something cooking and Ocean Boulevard needs to get moving before it's too late!

    Side Note: The FLOW mobile customer is becoming far more different than the Digicel customer... I'm sure there is data to prove that FLOW customers consume far more data and spend way more than the average Digicel subscriber (which is why I suspect they are selling off spare capacity to entities like Growth Tech). The ostensive focus on increasing ARPU attracts those who want the best data possible, flexibility to roam worldwide and similar value added services to the competition. FLOW can get away with pumping out 170+ Mbit/s over its network because it is shifting its business model to offering low cost per bit with current spectrum endowments; Digicel JUST added ANOTHER Band to their already complex site setup while still running 4 carriers of WCDMA and GSM over 900 MHz & 1800 MHz. INEFFICIENT!
    What I don't get though is why Digicel having the largest amount of subscribers. Did not go the route of Flow and deploy the exact or very similar technologies on the Network. Digicel continues to say that they have Jamaica's largest and fastest LTE Network, approved by Bolt. And yet this is not the case, and Flow stays quite and allow them to make such claims without evidence. For some reason people rather stick out the poor service with Digicel than going over to Flow. Most users rate Digicel as the better Network based on experience and coverage. I wonder now if Digicel does indeed have plans to go the route of Carrier Aggregation?.

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    This is why I've said elsewhere that I am not loyal to any of these companies. While they do have technological advances (sometimes) behind them, the main thing is to make money. How they do this is by taking the stance that TOJ/JTC/CWJ has always taken: milk the customers for all they can get. Can they provide better service, why should they bother when they can only make partial improvements in the guise of "advancement" to keep their customer-base?

    When CWJ became LIME and had far higher rates than everyone else, they were still holding a large portion of the market. When they suddenly dropped the rates down to $2.99 (with some rates now at $1.99) the company tried to push attention elsewhere. "The parent company wrote off the multi-billion dollar debt we had" was basically what they said. This means that previously they were operating at a cost to not only make a profit, but to also make payments to the parent company. So dropping the rates by more than half they are still making a profit! There's still a lot of factors to consider.

    Do they need to charge as much as they do for calls? No. Why do they do it then? Because plans may be available but you won't be switched to them automatically if they can make more from you on the old plans.

    Could some calls (landline to landline) be free? Yes. But there's more money to be made by charging. For the older ones among us, you may recall that calls within the same parish using POTS was free. Only calls to other exchanges would incur costs. Now with a primarily digital network rollout why can't it be free all the time? If you have FLOW to FLOW it is free, but there are some differences and issues where this is concerned. Individuals and businesses with POTS switching to HFC and porting have MAJOR issues. Let's not get into that - another thesis for that alone.

    Could data be more affordable? Yes. Why not then? Because they can make more from you being satisfied with what you have. At least 6 years ago I spoke with persons in FLOW to lobby for higher upload speeds for gamers/streamers that need higher upload bandwidth. Nothing in that light to date. And correct me if I'm wrong, but DIGICEL doesn't have fiber coming out of Jamaica - they're renting from FLOW and charging you less money for better bandwidth overall. What FLOW does - and won't admit - is cripple the DIGICEL subscribers by increasing their latency. It doesn't matter at times due to the huge pipe they have, but if you play games then your latency matters.

    Anyways. Enough of my ranting. LTE is here. It's better with FLOW at current. Digicel has done a FLOW in their approach, but FLOW is a bigger company and can withstand more stuff. Try to call Digicel customer care these days - you'll see what I'm talking about. Even though FLOW has no customer service, at least they still have humans and a way that you can speak to one.
    Knowing the solution doesn't mean knowing the method. Yet answering correctly and regurgitation are considered "learning" and "knowledge".

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    Quote Originally Posted by khat17 View Post
    This is why I've said elsewhere that I am not loyal to any of these companies. While they do have technological advances (sometimes) behind them, the main thing is to make money. How they do this is by taking the stance that TOJ/JTC/CWJ has always taken: milk the customers for all they can get. Can they provide better service, why should they bother when they can only make partial improvements in the guise of "advancement" to keep their customer-base?

    When CWJ became LIME and had far higher rates than everyone else, they were still holding a large portion of the market. When they suddenly dropped the rates down to $2.99 (with some rates now at $1.99) the company tried to push attention elsewhere. "The parent company wrote off the multi-billion dollar debt we had" was basically what they said. This means that previously they were operating at a cost to not only make a profit, but to also make payments to the parent company. So dropping the rates by more than half they are still making a profit! There's still a lot of factors to consider.

    Do they need to charge as much as they do for calls? No. Why do they do it then? Because plans may be available but you won't be switched to them automatically if they can make more from you on the old plans.

    Could some calls (landline to landline) be free? Yes. But there's more money to be made by charging. For the older ones among us, you may recall that calls within the same parish using POTS was free. Only calls to other exchanges would incur costs. Now with a primarily digital network rollout why can't it be free all the time? If you have FLOW to FLOW it is free, but there are some differences and issues where this is concerned. Individuals and businesses with POTS switching to HFC and porting have MAJOR issues. Let's not get into that - another thesis for that alone.

    Could data be more affordable? Yes. Why not then? Because they can make more from you being satisfied with what you have. At least 6 years ago I spoke with persons in FLOW to lobby for higher upload speeds for gamers/streamers that need higher upload bandwidth. Nothing in that light to date. And correct me if I'm wrong, but DIGICEL doesn't have fiber coming out of Jamaica - they're renting from FLOW and charging you less money for better bandwidth overall. What FLOW does - and won't admit - is cripple the DIGICEL subscribers by increasing their latency. It doesn't matter at times due to the huge pipe they have, but if you play games then your latency matters.

    Anyways. Enough of my ranting. LTE is here. It's better with FLOW at current. Digicel has done a FLOW in their approach, but FLOW is a bigger company and can withstand more stuff. Try to call Digicel customer care these days - you'll see what I'm talking about. Even though FLOW has no customer service, at least they still have humans and a way that you can speak to one.
    True, Digicel is doing LTE on the cheap and to be honest, it shows... Just do it right from the get go! They probably should have gone with Huawei instead. They're on par with Ericsson IMO; just look at FLOW's coverage in Montego Bay... 2G has practically vanished there; I've seen Digicel users on EDGE... even after the ZTE 'transformation'

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan77791 View Post
    What I don't get though is why Digicel having the largest amount of subscribers. Did not go the route of Flow and deploy the exact or very similar technologies on the Network. Digicel continues to say that they have Jamaica's largest and fastest LTE Network, approved by Bolt. And yet this is not the case, and Flow stays quite and allow them to make such claims without evidence. For some reason people rather stick out the poor service with Digicel than going over to Flow. Most users rate Digicel as the better Network based on experience and coverage. I wonder now if Digicel does indeed have plans to go the route of Carrier Aggregation?.
    Simply put, ZTE's equipment can't do what Huawei or Ericsson can... in fact, we may be privy to some new information of the progress of that 'transformation' pretty soon. That Digicel LTE launch is promoting a product that is LTE in everything but function. Their DC-HSDPA network provides similar performance and, is still very good but it's on Ericsson. FLOW should really be pushing ads showing the glaring speed differences between them and the competition; not all LTE networks are created equally. I think its time that FLOW brings the "Action in Satisfaction" campaign here in Jamaica (it's ongoing in Barbados) to really prove to Jamaicans that they aren't the CWJ/TOJ/JTC they used to know...

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    So... FLOW has announced yesterday that they intend to extend their LTE network to 87% of the population by year end. In addition, they also plan to cover 95% of Jamaicans with LTE by 2020. This may signal some intention to acquire or use Low Band frequency to reach the rest of island. FLOW also said that most of this work is funded directly by profits generated from the business. I do however note the lag time, I'm guessing it may be a result of their intentions to launch LTE Advanced in a few locations and perhaps voice services over their LTE network. By 2020 BOTH operators should have VoLTE solely because of the numbers; 3G coverage is around that same number (maybe around 98%) currently and, if 3G being the main voice layer for both operators... 2G should be deprecated by then and 3G be significantly slimmed down for LTE to be the main network driver (and perhaps with 5G tests popping up here and there).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandysull View Post
    So... FLOW has announced yesterday that they intend to extend their LTE network to 87% of the population by year end. In addition, they also plan to cover 95% of Jamaicans with LTE by 2020. This may signal some intention to acquire or use Low Band frequency to reach the rest of island. FLOW also said that most of this work is funded directly by profits generated from the business. I do however note the lag time, I'm guessing it may be a result of their intentions to launch LTE Advanced in a few locations and perhaps voice services over their LTE network. By 2020 BOTH operators should have VoLTE solely because of the numbers; 3G coverage is around that same number (maybe around 98%) currently and, if 3G being the main voice layer for both operators... 2G should be deprecated by then and 3G be significantly slimmed down for LTE to be the main network driver (and perhaps with 5G tests popping up here and there).
    Digicel needs major help, Thier LTE isn't Lit at all. What do you see them doing to resolve Thier slow network?. I know they need massive increase in capacity, but how will they achieve that?. Also for VoLTE or HD voice, can the carrier push a update to the device to activate VoLTE/HD voice or the phone has to have the service independently. Based on the app Network info analysis my S7 edge is not VoLTE supported. So that means I won't be able to use HD voice or VoLTE?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan77791 View Post
    Digicel needs major help, Thier LTE isn't Lit at all. What do you see them doing to resolve Thier slow network?. I know they need massive increase in capacity, but how will they achieve that?. Also for VoLTE or HD voice, can the carrier push a update to the device to activate VoLTE/HD voice or the phone has to have the service independently. Based on the app Network info analysis my S7 edge is not VoLTE supported. So that means I won't be able to use HD voice or VoLTE?.
    As far as I know, VoLTE deployments have become pretty much become standardized. What they require is the device to be able to register on the IMS which is done through special functionality in the ISIM. I do suppose there are ways to enable VoLTE with USIMs as well. Updates can be another way of certifying the device for VoLTE on the network (which I presume is the way they intend to do so for iPhones) but simply registering on the IMS is what is required to have your device jump over the CS-CF and use the IP stratum instead. Your device upon registration avails the network of information as to whether it is IMS capable or not. It's on the network end that compatibility needs to ensured and their vendor partner, Ericsson, is a master of that art. FLOW and Digicel use all IP routing for the "circuit switched" domain where your phone number in the core network is essentially an email address. FLOW I know had made the transition in the days of their HSPA+ push in Kingston & St. Andrew by Digicel had done so a year or so earlier. In order to move up VoLTE, both operators can simply build on their current systems; essentially deploying a new core network application which would handle VoLTE and ensure the service can achieve 99.99999% uptime. This work can be done pretty quickly but I think our operatos are focused on imporving coverage first before looking at Value-Added Services.

    As for Digicel and improving their LTE services... I think what is clear here is that 700 MHz hasn't that much advantage in Jamaica as opposed to AWS, PCS or any other currently deployed LTE Band. Digicel would have benefitted from deploying with mid-band spectrum (AWS or PCS) and then overlayed it with 700 MHz or 850 MHz. They really had just used the wrong strategy in my opinion... going off of the Verizon and AT&T school of thought may get you large coverage but the service quality vis-Ã*-vis speed will suffer immensely. Jamaicans are data hungry and in order to adequately serve then, one must do capacity first, then coverage.
    Last edited by Brandysull; Jun 27, 2018 at 01:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandysull View Post
    As far as I know, VoLTE deployments have become pretty much become standardized. What they require is the device to be able to register on the IMS which is done through special functionality in the ISIM. I do suppose there are ways to enable VoLTE with USIMs as well. Updates can be another way of certifying the device for VoLTE on the network (which I presume is the way they intend to do so for iPhones) but simply registering on the IMS is what is required to have your device jump over the CS-CF and use the IP stratum instead. Your device upon registration avails the network of information as to whether it is IMS capable or not. It's on the network end that compatibility needs to ensured and their vendor partner, Ericsson, is a master of that art. FLOW and Digicel use all IP routing for the "circuit switched" domain where your phone number in the core network is essentially an email address. FLOW I know had made the transition in the days of their HSPA+ push in Kingston & St. Andrew by Digicel had done so a year or so earlier. In order to move up VoLTE, both operators can simply build on their current systems; essentially deploying a new core network application which would handle VoLTE and ensure the service can achieve 99.99999% uptime. This work can be done pretty quickly but I think our operatos are focused on imporving coverage first before looking at Value-Added Services.

    As for Digicel and improving their LTE services... I think what is clear here is that 700 MHz hasn't that much advantage in Jamaica as opposed to AWS, PCS or any other currently deployed LTE Band. Digicel would have benefitted from deploying with mid-band spectrum (AWS or PCS) and then overlayed it with 700 MHz or 850 MHz. They really had just used the wrong strategy in my opinion... going off of the Verizon and AT&T school of thought may get you large coverage but the service quality vis-Ã*-vis speed will suffer immensely. Jamaicans are data hungry and in order to adequately serve then, one must do capacity first, then coverage.
    OK thanks for the in dept analysis, but simply put. Once my phone supports the IMS core, then I should be able to get HD voice. Don't know if this means anything, but all my voice calls are AMR NB 12.200 on both Flow and Digicel when I used Thier service. Is that the phones selection or Flow working on enhanced voice?. I will just start buying Snapdragon Soc devices from now on. Most Flagships for the US market is VoLTE supported.

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