UTECH Comp Sci. Degree now needs 2 A'-Levels

[Xenocrates]

As of Academic Year 2006/07, as a part of the University of Technology's continuing effort to upgrade the quality of the degree program and as well as to comply with newly required measures for Degree accreditation internationally (particularly at the Michigan Institute of Technology), the university now requires prospective incumbents to be aware of the following changes:


In addition to 5 cxc's and / or O'levels including Mathematics, English and a science subject (preferrably physics), you are now required to have at least two A'Level subjects, one of which preferrably should be A-Level Computer Science. Preference will be given to prospective incumbents who have A'Level Computer Science and either Information Technology at the CXC level or Computer Science at the O'Level.


The current 4-year Bachelor's of Science in Computing & Information Technology will be phased out come June 2006, and now be replaced by a 5-year Bachelor's of Science degree course in Computer Science.


The academic year beginning September 2005/06 is the last time that the 4-year B.Sc. degree course in Computing and Information Technology (which only requires 5 CXCs/O'Levels with Mathematics, English & Physics) will be carried at the university. After that iteration, it will be deprecated permanently.


Prospective incumbents for the academic year beginning September 2005/06 should prepare themselves for an aptitude test earlier in the year than the usual mid-summer time frame. Details should be mailed to you in your packages or you may (preferrably) pre-empt this effort by acquiring a new copy of the synopsis for the degree courses available at UTECH. As always, it is always wiser to seek the information before it is sent to you.

[willy]

thanks for the heads up xeno

[Xenocrates]

I should also let you know that the UTECH degree program has as of yesterday, secured international accreditation through the University Council of Jamaica. Yeah you heard right. Now we're in a similar league to the University of the West Indies. It's ooon bra. :eusa_danc

But one of the most important revisions has been the following updates: The final year of the degree program has been revised into two majors which succinctly follow industry standard certifications:

Enterprise Computing - Microsoft Certified System Developer/Microsoft Certified Database Administrator. Students will specialize in programming with the Microsoft Visual Studio development environment with strong course focus on Enterprise management using Microsoft SQL Server 2000 and related tools. End-to-end/multi-tier applications using a combination of various front/back ends for e-commerce and web development are all a part of the course.

Data Communications - Microsoft Certified System Engineer, Microsoft Windows Server 2003/XP (or current industry standard). The course contents follow the exact course material covered in any given MCSE certification program including functional requirements enabling students to build/deploy/manage Win2k3 server machines and workstations. Advanced networking concepts are provided with the course. You may optionally choose to undertake the MCSE exams after the completion of this course, as you will be using MCSE course material (including textbooks, study guides and software).

So if you plan to acquire any of these certifications before doing your degree, take my advice? DON'T BOTHER.

Apply to UTECH, get your degree and then do your cert exams after final year since the cert content is already a part of the course. UTECH makes acquiring your certs THAT much easier. Save yourself an extra 200k from doing the same course at another specialized institution.

Oh by the way, your new school fee is now in excess of $113,000 - for new first year students. However, it will run you in excess of $128,000 if you're doing the degree part time. That's a steal compared to the skills you get when you leave in final year compared to other local universities. Subsequent years should see an estimated 25% increase for each year. So budget for that increase before you plan to apply and don't bother with the road block justice like my friends up the road. m'kay? :eusa_naug

And one more thing, if you don't have A-Levels, you might want to run down to UTECH and pickup some application forms like today? Cuz if you don't get in this year, you're going to be up against some fierce competition and some extra hassle come 2006.

You heard it on TechJamaica first. Happy Hunting.

[Malloc-X]

what if you have an Associate degree from another institution do you still need A levels?

[Xenocrates]

If you apply for Academic year 2005/06, it's likely they'll start you from the second year. If you apply, find out about getting exemptions from student affairs. The reason why you start from second year is that you will be exempted from all of the course content in the first year.

Although UTECH usually starts you from the second year with an Associate Degree, they won't do it automatically. You have to talk to the people at the student adninistration desk about it or the School of Computing Student Affairs desk on the first floor of the Engineering Building. You will be given an additional form to fill out. But you have to do it EARLY, because those accreditations require a content sensitive report of your performance to be sent to UTECH from the previous institution. Usually they take a while to create this report, so if you plan to go in 2005, you need to HAUL *****!

If you're going in for 2006/07, you need to find out what your Associate Degree will be worth without A'Levels. At best, I can tell you that you will get a large number of exemptions and second year will be a breeze - since you'll probably end up doing only 1 or 2 course for the entire year. ;)

[death_knight]

good looking out xeno i'm gonna head up there tomorrow if possible to get my application

[icuucme]

where did u get the info about the accreditation?

[megiddo]

tomorrow utech is closed i believe, because of tag drive

[Nastrodamus]

Ok. uummm, I am no genius in this field, but I don't think UWI's Courses are accredited by the UCJ but by an accrediting body out of England. Should this be true then it could be as a result of UWI not necessarily being a Jamaican University, but rather a Trinidad University based in several locations in the caribbean. <correct me if i am wrong on this>

This is good that UTECH has gotten international accreditation through the UCJ. Their courses has been (as we have discussed from time to time) more hands on and practical than that of the UWI.

5 years though is kinda a long time to get just a Bachelors. Just my take on it.

[AngelsKiss]

Something you should know, when you talk about international accreditation (or any accrediation for that matter), it's good to know what accreditation body that the course/school is accredited by. There are many accreditations. Note also, the University (school) accreditation is different from the degree/program accrediations.

For example...using MIT, they are accredited by New England Association of Schools and Colleges, Inc. However, many of their programs are accredited by various professional accrediting bodies, eg:

American Assembly of Collegiate Schools of Business
Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology
American Chemical Society
American Institute of Chemical Engineers
Computer Science Accreditation Board, the National Architectural Accrediting Board
Planning Accreditation Board

I mentioned this, because if you plan to do further studies or work in north America, it is important to note the various acreditation bodies, especially in certain fields like engineering which requires specific accreditation.

[Nastrodamus]

Something you should know, when you talk about international accreditation (or any accrediation for that matter), it's good to know what accreditation body that the course/school is accredited by. There are many accreditations. Note also, the University (school) accreditation is different from the degree/program accrediations.

For example...using MIT, they are accredited by New England Association of Schools and Colleges, Inc. However, many of their programs are accredited by various professional accrediting bodies, eg:

American Assembly of Collegiate Schools of Business
Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology
American Chemical Society
American Institute of Chemical Engineers
Computer Science Accreditation Board, the National Architectural Accrediting Board
Planning Accreditation Board

I mentioned this, because if you plan to do further studies or work in north America, it is important to note the various acreditation bodies, especially in certain fields like engineering which requires specific accreditation.





My point exactly. Could say a bit more, but I don't want to go off the topic of the thread.

[Xenocrates]

where did u get the info about the accreditation?

- From lecturers. They broke the news after several days of meetings with these bodies and UCJ. Lecturers had a week-long discussion with them about the degree course etc. No official publication has been made yet. Hence why I said you heard it on TJ first.

:icon_arro Nas, AK

Agreed. I wasn't being very detailed was I? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/Xenocrates/Smilies/riiight.gif My apologies. I'm referring to:

Degree Accreditation - The Computing B.Sc. is now accredited by several international engineering & computing bodies out of MIT. The reviewers were extremely impressed with the programme which was originally modelled from MIT's computing & engineering course. In layman's terms, according to the reviewers, the UTECH Comp Sci. B.Sc. degree = MIT Comp Sci. B.Sc. degree. In fact, even our final exam papers, projects etc. are verified by professors from these institutions before our grades are finalized on paper. They've been doing that for years as a part of the process in order to get to this point.

Sorry for not being specific enough. I'm well aware of the two types. I just (wrongly) assumed that readers would infer from the specific nature of the post (About the Comp Sci B.Sc. Degree) that it would be obvious.

My bad. :eusa_wall

I will continue to spill more as I become aware of new info. Stay tuned.

:icon_arro Nas

The degree course is really 4 years. The first year will most likely be employed for those who don't have A'-Levels - kinda like UWI's pre-University program. This is new info I'm receiving just today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UWI's Comp Sci. degree 4 years if you don't have A' Levels and 3 years otherwise? I believe the new system is similar in some respects.

[nder]

The academic year beginning September 2005/06 is the last time that the 4-year B.Sc. degree course in Computing and Information Technology (which only requires 5 CXCs/O'Levels with Mathematics, English & Physics) will be carried at the university. After that iteration, it will be deprecated permanently.

I think what you meant to say is that the 4 year program has been deprecated and as of 2006/2007 will become obsolete. :icon_mrgr I'm sorry, I just had to :D

I think 5 years is a ridiculous amount of time to be spending pursuing a degree. I just completed the four year degree and that was a long time. I also don't like the shift from IT to Science. Sounds like they will be making it less of a technical course. But I might be wrong, one extra year is alot of time to do additional stuff in. But my grip still stands: 5 years is waaay long.

[AngelsKiss]

- From lecturers. They broke the news after several days of meetings with these bodies and UCJ. Lecturers had a week-long discussion with them about the degree course etc. No official publication has been made yet. Hence why I said you heard it on TJ first.

:icon_arro Nas, AK

Agreed. I wasn't being very detailed was I? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/Xenocrates/Smilies/riiight.gif My apologies. I'm referring to:

Degree Accreditation - The Computing B.Sc. is now accredited by several international engineering & computing bodies out of MIT. The reviewers were extremely impressed with the programme which was originally modelled from MIT's computing & engineering course. In layman's terms, according to the reviewers, the UTECH Comp Sci. B.Sc. degree = MIT Comp Sci. B.Sc. degree. In fact, even our final exam papers, projects etc. are verified by professors from these institutions before our grades are finalized on paper. They've been doing that for years as a part of the process in order to get to this point.

Sorry for not being specific enough. I'm well aware of the two types. I just (wrongly) assumed that readers would infer from the specific nature of the post (About the Comp Sci B.Sc. Degree) that it would be obvious.



When it comes to accreditations not many ppl understand it. Not something you want to assume or skimp on the explanations, especially since there are lots of youngsters on this forum:)

[Xenocrates]

I think what you meant to say is that the 4 year program has been deprecated and as of 2006/2007 will become obsolete..

- That's saying a very different thing my friend. The current 4 year program has not yet been deprecated and it is not going to become obsolete. If it were deprecated, they wouldn't be taking new students for it in Semptember 2005. Furthermore, if it were to become obsolete, that would mean that the new degree program would be an entirely new one - which it is not. It is merely an enhancement, not a replacement, of the current degree course.


I don't like the shift from IT to Science. Sounds like they will be making it less of a technical course. But I might be wrong, one extra year is alot of time to do additional stuff in.

- Rest assured. You're quite wrong. If a woman is beautiful, changing her name won't make her any more or less beautiful. However, if she puts on weight, it might, depending on which side of the fence you're on.

It's the same thing here. I take it you're unfamiliar with what UTECH is well known for. Heck, I think it's quite clear in the very name: U-TECH... hmmm... seems pretty obvious to me! :icon_mrgr

No, but on a serious note, the name change is merely to comply with (certain) international standards based on UCJ recommedation. The course content is still very much the same - for the most part anyway. New students come 2005 will have an even more vast skillset in 2009 than those graduating in 2005.

And in case you really don't know what utech is well known for: Students leave with not only a degree, but a massive skillset, ready to hit the ground running without any need for additional training in most cases. Real world managers love UTECH students because they don't have to send them on a specialized training course after they're hired. Digicel was heavily in attendance at the last Engineering Graduation. Price Waterhouse was heavily in attendance at the last School of Business Graduation. Cable & Wireless and several other IT firms had representatives at the last SCIT graduation. There's a reason for that you know.


I think 5 years is a ridiculous amount of time to be spending pursuing a degree.

- Response:


The degree course is really 4 years. The first year will most likely be employed for those who don't have A'-Levels - kinda like UWI's pre-University program. This is new info I'm receiving just today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't UWI's Comp Sci. degree 4 years if you don't have A' Levels and 3 years otherwise? I believe the new system is similar in some respects.

It's funny how you pay attention to some details and completely miss the point, then miss the details really pertinent to your concern, and still miss the point. :icon_mrgr I'm sorry, I just had to. :D

No but seriously, it's 4 years w. A' Levels, 5 years w/o to the best of my understanding thus far. Ya get it? Ya get it! Great! Party! :eusa_danc

[Xenocrates]

When it comes to accreditations not many ppl understand it. Not something you want to assume or skimp on the explanations, especially since there are lots of youngsters on this forum:)

- You're absolutely right AK. One would think that after being on this forum for 1½ years that I'd have figured this out by now. Even that poll we conducted some time ago showed this. Man my skull is thick.

:eusa_wall

But you know what's funny AK? If I'm detailed, they complain that it's too long and that I'm trying to insult their intelligence. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. :icon_roll

[AngelsKiss]

*AK...dons her devil's hat*

Maybe UTech is just highly overated :)

[Xenocrates]

I would like to tell you which is highly overrated, but due to how I'm outnumbered by those grads.... I betta shet me mout' :D

Some man cyaa play, u zimi? :icon_mrgr

[AngelsKiss]

But you know what's funny AK? If I'm detailed, they complain that it's too long and that I'm trying to insult their intelligence. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. :icon_roll
Thats life for you :)

Seriously though, I mentioned the accrediation, because it's a very important part of choosing a college/university and program.

Too often we hear an institution say they are accredited by an international body. However, when you check the body they are accredited to, is of no consequence. also they will tell you they (the institution) are accredited when may be it's just one of their programs that has an accreditation. There use to be a particular tertiary institution right here in Jamaica that would do just that.

[kevin1386]

over-rated, do you know any body in scit, and thier workload.

[Xenocrates]

She's playing Kevin. :D She is a former UTECH student herself so she knows more than anyone else what the workload's like. Trust me, she just pulling toes. :p

[nder]

I didn't miss the details. But we are not sure what they are going to do with the extra year as yet. But its kindof a weak argument that it will be used as an extra qualification year if they are going to require A Level to get in in the first place.

And back to the semantic argument. In programming jargon, if you deprecate a function you are allowed to continue using it for a while (so the 4 year degree is now deprecated). After a period of time, the function is replaced with a new function (it usually performs the same task but in a different way) and the old one becomes obsolete (it can no longer be used). So in 2006/2007 the 4 year program will be replcaed by the new 5 year program and will become obsolete.

"And in case you really don't know what utech is well known for", Um, I do know what its know for. First hand too. I spent four years there. Just got parole this year. So I'm not too worried about the content of the degree. I'm just worried that they might loose their focus in all this restructuring halabaloo. One thing that I've always maintained is that UTech has a very well designed programme. But its never executed well. So if they add more overhead without first sorting themselves out, they may just mess things up more.

Personally, I think 5 years is alot of time to spend in any institution unless they will be incorporating an internship programme. In the same 5 years one person would spend at UTech doing a Comp Sci degree they could go to UWI (just a suggestion here) and get a 3 year degree, then start working and do their Masters while gaining experience. In the end, they would be in a better position than the person who spent 5 years at UTech studying. Knowledge is worth zero without application.

[Nastrodamus]

Ok... Nder


If you wished to get into a Unversity in the UK with CXC passes alone. They will admit you to the institution but you will be required to do a FOUNDATION YEAR, before you talk the 4 year degree. That foundation course will be tailored towards the degree you have opted to do. That is a total of 5 years. If you have A level qualification then you will begin your 4 years Degree.

UTECH (I am assuming), has adapted the same principle. If you do not have A' levels to do the program, you will be required to do a foundation year, which they will tailor towards their 4 year Comp Sci degree. This will total 5 years. If you don't want to be there for 5 years then simply do your A' Levels and you will only do the 4 year program. (By the way if you do A' Levels at a traditional high school it will total six years as you have to do 2 years at sixth form and then the 4 year degree program)


Regarding the issue of UTECH's course content, at this point UTECH is top notch on hands on experience.

[kevin1386]

The A-level Xtra Year Is'nt much of concern since in my year.

60% - Have done the 2 years of sixth form
30% - Have done the 1 year out sixth form
10% - Have not done sixth form

[AngelsKiss]

She's playing Kevin. :D She is a former UTECH student herself so she knows more than anyone else what the workload's like. Trust me, she just pulling toes. :p
LOL....Xeno...I gotta love ya, I can always trust that you will be one of the very few (and I do mean few) who can understand my brand of humour. Nevermind the fact that I go out of my way to post in such away that one would think even the youngest of minds could understand. I have a 10 year old niece and even she can understand my humour and mischieveousness. Makes me wonder where do I go wrong here :)

Anyway, lemme not stray from the topic :)

[Xenocrates]

...I spent four years there. Just got parole this year.

- Hehehe, hey, that last sentence - that's funny man! :D I'm serious! Had me rolling for a bit. :icon_mrgr


Personally, I think 5 years is alot of time to spend in any institution unless they will be incorporating an internship programme.

- But what do you think about spending 1 year to do A'-Level qualification instead of going to 6th form and doing two years? I think it works out better for students in the long run. After finishing 5th form, they could go to 6th form for 1 year (or sit out a year until they're 16) and then go str8 to UTECH. Personally, unless your 6th form is setup like Campion's, I think it's an utter waste of time. Furthermore, if you manage to make it into Campion's 6th form, odds are that you'll want to study overseas anyway (because Campion's 6th form is THAT good). Either way I think it makes perfect sense. Nastro hit the nail on the head, so I won't say more on that.

[Xenocrates]

In the same 5 years one person would spend at UTech doing a Comp Sci degree they could go to UWI (just a suggestion here) and get a 3 year degree, then start working and do their Masters while gaining experience.

- In addition to what Nastro already said, a Masters degree is worthless without prior applicable experience. Almost EVERY UWI B.Sc. comp sci graduate I know, has very little in terms of marketable computer skills right off the bat - MARKETABLE being the operative word. People who know me know that I have always criticized the UWI degree because:

It is structured in such a way (using the North American credit standard) that in adding to a few core courses, students can choose the subjects they want to do, which in 90% of the cases, allows them to graduate without learning any marketable skills, because they will only choose the easiest subjects that give them the required credits for the semester.

As a result, UWI students graduate in folds every year with a Comp Sci B.Sc. degree and still can't do something as basic as building a database in 3rd or fourth normal form! UTECH doesn't give students that kind of freedom and it pays off.

UWI gives you a GOOD foundation. UTECH gives you a GOOD foundation + Marketable Skills. The final year @ UTECH is what UWI doesn't have. That's why UTECH's degree is 4 years, and UWI's is 3. If I had to spend an extra year to make myself marketable without having to spend extra money AFTER I graduate to get marketable skills, or worry about getting a job because I lack experience or skills and working my way up from the plebs level, then so be it.

[Xenocrates]

In the end, they would be in a better position than the person who spent 5 years at UTech studying.

- Not true, based on everything I said in the previous post. But it's funny you should say this:


Knowledge is worth zero without application.

- because that is EXACTLY why I wouldn't go do a Comp Sci. Degree @ UWI (at twice the school fee of UTECH!!) for all the aforementioned reasons.

Wait a minute, aren't you supposed to be arguing against my points and not for them? :eusa_thin

Whose side are you on anyway? :icon_mrgr I bet you're doing this now: :eusa_wall

Anyways yute, rest assured; The UTECH people know what they're doing. Their admin does have its issues, but the skillset you leave with is priceless, both in terms of time and money. You of all persons should know that. :)

[Malloc-X]

When it comes to accreditations not many ppl understand it. Not something you want to assume or skimp on the explanations, especially since there are lots of youngsters on this forum:)

I love my fellow techjamaicans, they are so smart :)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

All this is very interesting, and good news. Good looking out X-dude for giving us the heads up. I especially love the orientation of courses along the lines of the professional certifications. This is something I've been advocating in tertiary IT education for some time. It just makes sense.

So what's UWI gonna do to keep up the pace? :eusa_thin

Where I want to see some revolution now is in the field of post-graduate IT education. There needs to be more and better options for those of us who can't afford to do overseas Masters degrees.

[death_knight]

aint that the truth i started FIU and had to quite, things would be too tight financially and i'm used to my life as it is, was scared of the sacrifice, if ne thing should come up i wouldn't be able to manage that financially, utech [ look out for me september ], hey could someone give me the url so i could download the app form i googled it but i honestly never find the form on the site. :(

[Xenocrates]

err... just take the bus and head on over there and pickup the form. The smallchange they charging you for the form not going to kill you!

I'm curious though, what's the tuition at FIU?

[death_knight]

its a lil over a millon jamaican dollars not that bad actually compared to what u would pay if you actually went to florida to do the bachelors in IT there. but i gotta say that degree outline was made for me, advanced windows api programming, unix programming and all the programming goodies a geek like me would ever want. [ err scratch the geek comment ]. but u know how it is.

[wiz]

I hear alot being said about UWI program vs UTECH is there actually anyone here except me that has done or is doing Computer Science @ UWI?

Is the fee for UTECH's IT degree 60,000 a yr? cause I read someone say it was half UWI's cost.

as to the arguement about students being given too much of a choice in what subjects they do ... having to choose 3/4 or 4/5 courses each semester is not much of a choice so I don't think that can be blamed for UWI students so called lack of marketable skills.

UWI is not a university strong on the technical side of things as compared to the University of TECHNOLOGY but there is an arguement for teaching the science side of computers as it very often produces the researchers that advance the field.

Being a UWI student I think that UTECH has a more technical program yes and probably more marketable yes but I know that UWI gives you enough of an introduction to the required technologies for a person genuinely interested to take it further. My courses introduced me to C/C++/Java/other programming languages but it's my drive that took me to the intermediate level in them.

BIG UP to UTECH program cause it sounds wonderful but I wouldn't have wanted to spend 5 yrs doing an undergrad degree and to be quite honest I like the degree that I've done being in the final yr of my 3 yr program and as soon as I finish my degree MCSE here I come that gives me B Sc + MSCE in about 4 yrs then hopefully in the 5th yr I find a Masters I like.

[icuucme]

the school fee for this year is actually 105 k for school of computing..i dont think they literally meant half the cost of uwi

[AngelsKiss]

I hear alot being said about UWI program vs UTECH is there actually anyone here except me that has done or is doing Computer Science @ UWI?

Is the fee for UTECH's IT degree 60,000 a yr? cause I read someone say it was half UWI's cost.

as to the arguement about students being given too much of a choice in what subjects they do ... having to choose 3/4 or 4/5 courses each semester is not much of a choice so I don't think that can be blamed for UWI students so called lack of marketable skills.

UWI is not a university strong on the technical side of things as compared to the University of TECHNOLOGY but there is an arguement for teaching the science side of computers as it very often produces the researchers that advance the field.

Being a UWI student I think that UTECH has a more technical program yes and probably more marketable yes but I know that UWI gives you enough of an introduction to the required technologies for a person genuinely interested to take it further. My courses introduced me to C/C++/Java/other programming languages but it's my drive that took me to the intermediate level in them.

BIG UP to UTECH program cause it sounds wonderful but I wouldn't have wanted to spend 5 yrs doing an undergrad degree and to be quite honest I like the degree that I've done being in the final yr of my 3 yr program and as soon as I finish my degree MCSE here I come that gives me B Sc + MSCE in about 4 yrs then hopefully in the 5th yr I find a Masters I like.


For years this competition between UWI/UTech has been going on. If you ask me, I think it's ridiculous. They are both good tertiary institutions and cater for different needs. I too use to attend UTech and lots of ppl seems to think that because UTech cram their students with a lot of assignments that it makes it a better institution. Yes their course outlines are good and they are very good when it comes to the practical side. However, it doesn't mean that UWI is not as good. In fact, UWI appears to have a better international reputation than UTech. UTech is now making it's international mark but UWI is more acceptable, granted I think its because they have been at the University level forever unlike UTech.

[ges]

You can start off in different ways...but isn't the question where is it you want to go and how soon can you get there? Education makes you trainable. Do the UTECH and UWI graduates end up in the same place in the IT industry?

[Xenocrates]

:icon_arro Wiz

You've made some very excellent points. So lest any one misunderstand me (as it tends to be the case) let me make a few things clear:

1. I in no way intended to start a thread that fosters competitive debate about which university is better. I was merely updating folks on happenings @ UTECH. In fact, I believe each institution has its strengths, it's just a matter of how you want to enter the working world. As such:

2. I am in no way denegrating UWI students or UWI's course or UWI. I am merely stating facts. No need for anyone to get defensive. Both are equally strong institutions with their own strengths and weaknesses. I would not do a degree in medicine at UTECH. That's for sure!

3. I do not believe that UWI Comp Sci. grads are useless or incompetent or otherwise - in fact, one little detail I left out of my previous postings (in order to keep it short - and it still wasn't short enough) was that all the true computer geniuses I know went to UWI, but they never integrated well right off the bat out here - in fact, they either ended up:

a. Starting their own business (which took time to get off the ground)
b. Working overseas where their knowledge actually has practical application
c. Lecturing @ UWI (or UTECH or IMP etc...)

That's not to say that UWI grads don't get jobs. That could be no further from the truth. In fact, an interesting observation is that UWI grads are better able to abstract and apply themselves than UTECH grads who tend to be affixed to a certain methodology. That can either be a strength or a weakness depending on your personality. But every coin has a flipside:

Have you ever heard of the brain loop phenomenon? It's a condition where someone does a degree that is so specialized or so theory based or so highly sophisticated, that it has very little practical application in the local market place, except to teach it again in order to survive. Such degrees only allow the pursuer to know more and more about less and less. That's exactly what I'm running away from. Because the more I know about less, the less useful I become to more of the market. You follow?

[Cler1c]

You can start off in different ways...but isn't the question where is it you want to go and how soon can you get there? Education makes you trainable. Do the UTECH and UWI graduates end up in the same place in the IT industry?

well i have no experience but i have heard that a utech student .. due to the belief of technical experience ... gets accepted in positions over a uwi student.
then again i beleive its not wat u know but who u know suh it dont really matter. ;)

[Xenocrates]

With respect to quickly acquiring a Master's Degree:

I don't want to do a degree where either doing a masters or teaching are my only options after finishing the first degree. To me, that's impractical, because managers don't hire young people with Magna Cum Laude Master's degrees and no work experience. To me that's a waste of time (however shorter time it takes) and I most certainly won't get paid for my master's degree. I speak from observational experience.

With our economy, if God forbid I am unable to make immediate use of my B.Sc. to put food in my mouth, and I can't afford to do the Masters just yet, then I'll be in a rather precarious position - this may not be the case for every joe, but it does happen! I want to be able to hit the ground running, and advance career-wise very quickly, without a need to do a masters just yet - as that's only siphoning money out of my pocket, but not putting much back in. Master's degrees are NOT cheap and should only be acquired after gaining the necessary work experience (in fact, at one point in time, UWI required 2 years work experience, but that no longer seems to be the case).

My simple view is that a degree of qualification should not just be a certification that you attended a well-known institution for 3-5 years of your precious life. It should be worth something in cash. Cash that you take to the bank. Unfortunately for us, not everyone, even after doing a degree at any given institution, knows how to quickly convert that knowledge into hard cold cash. That's where value added technical education comes in. That's why, to me, it makes more practical sense. It's good to know. But it's even better to know how. Knowledge is trivial if it has no practical purpose or application.

[Xenocrates]

well i have no experience but i have heard that a utech student .. due to the belief of technical experience ... gets accepted in positions over a uwi student.
then again i beleive its not wat u know but who u know suh it dont really matter. ;)

- Excellent point. But you can believe the hype. A good example: Government, Cable & Wireless, DigiCel and virtually any IT based entity in the country - They all prefer to hire UTECH students because they're cheaper to hire. In other words, they don't require training. Government in particular prefers UTECH students for all IT positions. I speak from experience.

I know only 1 person in Government's IT sections that came from UWI (and that doesn't mean there aren't more of them - I've just never met them - and I think I've met most of them so far). The rest are all UTECH grads. If that's not proof, I don't know what is. I find that UWI grads are better suited for management. But you know what happens when an organization gets top heavy right? Check this out:

Most UWI students beeline for the Masters degree immediately after doing a B.Sc. because practically, they're more likely to get a job that way. But what's funny Cler1c, is that Gov't places such importance on IT roles, that UTECH people in IT positions are getting similar paychecks to UWI students in manegerial positions. Yes you heard right.

But there aren't as many manegerial positions as there are technical IT positions, and to get into a manegerial position, it depends on who you know, or more likely, who likes you - which corroborates your point Cler1c. What you know in that case is completely inconsequential. That's the case with many IT influenced organizations.

[AngelsKiss]

:icon_arro Wiz

You've made some very excellent points. So lest any one misunderstand me (as it tends to be the case) let me make a few things clear:

1. I in no way intended to start a thread that fosters competitive debate about which university is better. I was merely updating folks on happenings @ UTECH. In fact, I believe each institution has its strengths, it's just a matter of how you want to enter the working world. As such:

2. I am in no way denegrating UWI students or UWI's course or UWI. I am merely stating facts. No need for anyone to get defensive. Both are equally strong institutions with their own strengths and weaknesses. I would not do a degree in medicine at UTECH. That's for sure!

3. I do not believe that UWI Comp Sci. grads are useless or incompetent or otherwise - in fact, one little detail I left out of my previous postings (in order to keep it short - and it still wasn't short enough) was that all the true computer geniuses I know went to UWI, but they never integrated well right off the bat out here - in fact, they either ended up:

a. Starting their own business (which took time to get off the ground)
b. Working overseas where their knowledge actually has practical application
c. Lecturing @ UWI (or UTECH or IMP etc...)

That's not to say that UWI grads don't get jobs. That could be no further from the truth. In fact, an interesting observation is that UWI grads are better able to abstract and apply themselves than UTECH grads who tend to be affixed to a certain methodology. That can either be a strength or a weakness depending on your personality. But every coin has a flipside:

Have you ever heard of the brain loop phenomenon? It's a condition where someone does a degree that is so specialized or so theory based or so highly sophisticated, that it has very little practical application in the local market place, except to teach it again in order to survive. Such degrees only allow the pursuer to know more and more about less and less. That's exactly what I'm running away from. Because the more I know about less, the less useful I become to more of the market. You follow?

Xeno...I don't know why you brought up this issue of ppl being defensive about the diff between UWI/Utech. As I stated before, this has been an ongoing issue for years. I also stated that selecting between UWI/UTech boils down to preference based on what an individual may be looking for.

The fact of the matter is that many ppl from UWI have gone on to be very successful...so this argument about UWI being only theory based doesn't really wash. Most of the ppl I have worked with studied at UWI and they are darn good IT ppl, some of the best around. I know of one who holds a senior consulting position at 1 of the leading financial institutions, many of them are in Canada as well. I don't think going to UTech as oppose to UWI means that you are going to come out on top. At the end of the day it has a lot to do with the individual and how they apply what they have learnt.

[Xenocrates]

There are however, always exceptions to the rule, and some organisational dynamics do prefer UWI students - like IT organisations that specialize in business process re-engineering or solutions management. This is an almost completely theoretical (or non-technical) field of IT and the final deliverable is contracted out to big software development firms like Management Control Systems (another UTECH student haven) who actually build the software based on a Software Requirements Definition provided by the BPR company. Such a company would thrive on UWI students (the converse is also true) because their focus is a more of an open-ended theoretical application of IT for business development, rather than a application deliverable. They call these companies Consultancies because their employees make recommendations and initiate BPR exercises. However, they're not actually the ones building the software.

So I don't want anyone to think that I'm belittling UWI students. However, where manegerial and technical positions abound, there's more of the latter than the former. That's just the reality of things.

-[Edit]-

...and I agree with your wholeheartedly AK - make no mistake! That is why I started that post you quoted with those three points. Those are the points which address your concerns.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

At the end of the day, just attending one of these institutions isn't going to get you the value you pay for. You have to put in a lot of hard work on your own to supplement what they teach you. I'm a UWI grad. I got good jobs after I finished. I know other UWI grads who did the same. Much of Fiscal Services is UWI grads straight from the BSc. I also know UTECH grads who had similar fortunes. The common traits in all of them are that they had initiative and were hard workers - regardless of the programme they were in. These people were able to recognize whatever deficiencies there were in their experience/training, and work to improve upon them.

Chose the programme that brings you closest to your goals, then work, work, work until you get where you need to be.

[AngelsKiss]

At the end of the day, just attending one of these institutions isn't going to get you the value you pay for. You have to put in a lot of hard work on your own to supplement what they teach you. I'm a UWI grad. I got good jobs after I finished. I know other UWI grads who did the same. Much of Fiscal Services is UWI grads straight from the BSc. I also know UTECH grads who had similar fortunes. The common traits in all of them are that they had initiative and were hard workers - regardless of the programme they were in. These people were able to recognize whatever deficiencies there were in their experience/training, and work to improve upon them.

Chose the programme that brings you closest to your goals, then work, work, work until you get where you need to be.

Precisely my point BCK.

Darn...something must be wrong here...I find of late am in agreement with BCK...we usually disagree about almost everything under the sun...but I digress :icon_mrgr

[Xenocrates]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/Xenocrates/Smilies/Lurking.gif

[Nastrodamus]

Precisely my point BCK.

Darn...something must be wrong here...I find of late am in agreement with BCK...we usually disagree about almost everything under the sun...but I digress :icon_mrgr

Heeheehee It is truly a Kodak Moment....and the Irony is that one is Graduate of UWI and one is a Graduate of UTECH

[AngelsKiss]

Heeheehee It is truly a Kodak Moment....and the Irony is that one is Graduate of UWI and one is a Graduate of UTECH
LOL...just goes to show that whether we are from UWI or UTech, we are not so different after all.

Well it's either that or the fact that am here in Jamaica that's making me so agreeable or its the darn flu that am picking up from playing Florence Nightingale, that could be addling my brain. I wonder what it could be? :icon_mrgr

[Malloc-X]

isn't this thread suppose to be about the UTECH comp Sci. degree? why are we having a discussion between uwi and UTECH? Why cant we stay on topic

[AngelsKiss]

isn't this thread suppose to be about the UTECH comp Sci. degree? why are we having a discussion between uwi and UTECH? Why cant we stay on topic
I was wondering how long it would take for some one to be bothered by the turn in our thread. I will never understand why it is we have to make an issue of every lil thing. The funy thing is that the change is subtle, we are still talking about UTech.

When having a conversation it usually takes all kinds of twist and turns, not stay at the same all the time. The same thing will happen on a forum and as long as we don't go way off topic (then again even if we do so what?) and we are respectful to each other thats enough for me.

The fact of the matter is that life is not static, it's ever changing and I believe we should learn to embrace changes as long as it doesn't go against ourt moral fibre. Personally I love changes, the way I see it, its a way to learn new things and to grow as an individual and am all for learning and growth. The Spanish has a saying Saber es Poder and I won't even say what it means. I know at least 2 individuals on here who will know and based o what I know of those 2 individuals they are ppl who are appears to always seek more knowledge. They also have a great sense of humour. Thaey are my kinda ppl.

:)

[digimar]

Well I don't know what the situation is at Mona but at Cave Hill we have two CS programs, one CS and the other IT.

The first year of both programs are the same however in second and final year is where they differ:

2nd yr CS

Discrete Maths
Software Engineering I
Information Structures
Computer Architecture....

2nd yr IT

Discrete Maths
Object Oriented Programming (java)
Software Engineering I
Information Structures

3rd yr CS
Design & Analysis of Algorithsm
Operating Systems
electives

3rd yr IT
Database Mgmt Systems
Web-Based Applications
electives

The only way a non-IT major cud some these courses (especially the 3rd yr ones due to 2nd yr prerequisities is to be a double CS major)

The Elective pool is also somewhat different in the two majors.

I chose IT (joint with Accounting) over CS (joint with Accounting) becuase it's more practical to me than CS. It's all about what fits you, not which school or programme is better or not.

Does Mona also offer a IT major in addition to CS?

I am in final yr and the IT part of my program is this:

1st yr:

Computer Programming I (C)
Computer Programming II (C++)
Introduction to Web Based Technologies
Basic Introductory Maths
Applied Stats

2nd yr

Discrete Maths
Software Engineering I
Information Structures
Object Oriented Programming (Java)
Microcomputer Applications for Management

3rd Yr

Sofware Engineering II
Database Management Systems
Web Based Applications
Summer Research Project (already done; got an A :D )
Management Information Systems

which is alot better to me than the CS program here where my friends are doing the CS stuff above..maybe Mona should look into doing something similar there.

[wiz]

I've listed below the courses in the UWI Computer Science program.
The first is Computer Science & the second Computer Studies (Comp Sci + Business)

*** COMPUTER SCIENCE DEGREE ***

YEAR I

INTRODUCTION TO COMPUTER SCIENCE I
INTRODUCTION TO COMPUTER SCIENCE II

YEAR II

ANALYSIS OF ALGORITHMS
DIGITAL LOGIC SYSTEMS
COMPUTER ARCHITECTURE AND ORGANIZATION
SOFTWARE ENGINEERING – DESIGN AND IMPLEMENTATION
OBJECT TECHNOLOGY

YEAR III

OPERATING SYSTEMS
COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS & NETWORKS
INTRODUCTION TO ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE
IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERPRETERS
DATABASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS
INFORMATION SYSTEMS IN ORGANISATIONS
USER INTERFACE DESIGN
IMPLEMENTATION OF COMPILERS
THEORY OF COMPUTATION
REAL-TIME EMBEDDED SYSTEMS
GROUP PROJECT



**** COMPUTER STUDIES OPTION *****

YEAR I

Introduction to Computer Science (I)
Introduction to Computer Science (II)
Basic Introductory Mathematics
Functions of Real Variables
Introduction to Microeconomics
Introduction to Macroeconomics
plus
either
Introduction of Financial Accounting
Introduction to Cost and Management Accounting
or
Introduction to Sociology I
Introduction to Sociology II

YEAR II/YEAR III

Information Structures and Algorithms
Discrete Mathematics for Computer Science
File Design and Implementation
Operating Systems
Introduction to Software Engineering
Database Management Systems
Information Systems in Organizations
plus
Four one YEAR III course from straight Computer Science Degree
plus
A minimum of 6 additional courses from Computer Science, Mathematics,
Economics or Management Studies.

[digimar]

Like I said, the only way to do most of the courses is to do the double major (in ur case BSC Comp Sci). But UWI here has the option to do the courses with a business major....which is different to Mona's CS program (where there is no IT equivalent unless u do a entire BSC in CS only) where you can apply them unlike stuff like computer Architecture, etc.

[Xenocrates]

:icon_arro digimar

Cave Hill seems to have a far better program as far as I'm concerned. I'm fascinated as to why UWI hasn't followed suit. It just makes so much more sense. The only difference I see with the Cave Hill IT and CS degrees and the UTECH program is that where Cave Hill makes a separation between the two degrees, UTECH does the content of both courses in the same degree program. No need to double major or anything like that. You get the full 9 yards in one degree course.

I think Nder's earlier concerns start to make a lot more sense now, considering that Cave Hill saw a need to make the CS and IT degrees separate. Nder? If you're reading - hats off to you man :eusa_clap - That was an excellent observation. I admit I didn't have the foresight to understand what you were getting at earlier.

Question though Digimar:

Does Cave Hill allow students to learn industry standard productivity tools in their IT degree? I didn't see any details of that in the 3rd year. Is that a minor detail you omitted or are those courses among the electives?

[wiz]

at Xeno

I'm looking at UWI Cave Hill vs UWI Mona and I the only difference I see is the Web Based Applications offered at cave hill which is covered between UWI's Software Engineering and User Interface Design courses..

[digimar]

The main difference comes in the final year electives where if a student has done one course or the other, they can't do many of the final year courses that IT majors can. Cave Hill have been adding electives that only IT majors can do. Especially this year and there is word that they are many to come.

I am just stating that the difference between Mona CS & Cave Hill IT (not CS) is that you are not forced to do courses that you cannot really apply in the work force. That time is better spent doing other stuff.

[digimar]

The main difference comes in the final year electives where if a student has done one course or the other, they can't do many of the final year courses that IT majors can. Cave Hill have been adding electives that only IT majors can do. Especially this year and there is word that they are many to come. I have many friends here who changed their major froom CS to IT after seeing the difference in the two degrees.

I am just stating that the difference between Mona CS & Cave Hill IT (not CS) is that you are not forced to do courses that you cannot really apply in the work force. That time is better spent doing other stuff.

My goal wasnt to compare Mona and Cave Hill programs, it was jus to suggest that maybe Mona could take a similar approach into seperating the two so that students have a greater choice.

[wiz]

I understand you werent comparing them but I'm just trying to clear up some misunderstandings for the benefit of people thinking about going to either institution.

Mona offers electives too as a matter of fact you can do CS as a double major with any other program that UWI offers there people doing MATH& CS, GEOgraphy& CS, chemistry, accounts, psychology... I do Electronics & CS you do any major along with a CS major or if you want you can just do some other courses for your own personal or professional interest. I didnt bother to list the electives cause you can do anything else that you want. You are in no way confined to CS courses only.

so you're choices are not limited at all. CS majors can do any other major/electives they wish they are not limited to courses in the faculty or department.

[digimar]

Mona offers electives too as a matter of fact you can do CS as a double major with any other program that UWI offers there people doing MATH& CS, GEOgraphy& CS, chemistry, accounts, psychology... I do Electronics & CS you do any major along with a CS major or if you want you can just do some other courses for your own personal or professional interest. I didnt bother to list the electives cause you can do anything else that you want. You are in no way confined to CS courses only.


The same thing exists here. I'm not talking about doing an additional major at all. All I was saying was that in the CS dept specifically persons have two major options instead of simply doing CS, so you can choose which one has the suits that best suit your goals. That's it.

[Xenocrates]

Either way, pound for pound, I still think Cave Hill kicks *****. That IT based degree is worth the price of admission alone. Only thing is that since UTECH is already doing the same thing, well, I don't have to leave the country. Thanks for the heads up Digimar. I never knew Cave Hill was going on so well! Sweet! :eusa_clap

[wiz]

ok I see what ur sayin digmar

[Xenocrates]

Every system has cracks and somebody is bound to fall through. :D

A better strength would be that UWI grads make far better managers than UTECH grads any day. UTECH students (for the most part) tend not to articulate as well as UWI students from any given course. That's just part of the reason why UWI people tend to make better bosses. So as I (and many others) had sed before, it depends on what you're aiming at.

But everybody can't be a boss, u zimi? That's why at this level, doing a master's degree makes little sense if you have no work experience. You most certainly won't get paid for it in 90% of the cases. You'll still get the same pay as somebody with a B.Sc. + skills + work experience, and as it is in many public sector cases, even worse pay than those with massive work experience + massive skills and no papers!

That's what I've been saying all along. You need the skills and the paper to make the paper worth your time. Getting more papers won't be worth jack if you don't have skills and work experience to back it up. Management will be more willing to send you off on study leave to do a Master's when they're satisfied that it's the only thing you need to qualify for a higher position. That's how I've always seen it happen (and I will admit that there will always be exceptions!)

Coming in with B.Sc. & Masters and getting the same dibby dibby pay as those who are far less qualified than you is extreeemely disheartening. Extreeemely.... and no hard working person fresh out of University wants to experience that. I've seen it happen, and it's extremely humbling to those students, not to mention quite embarrassing!

[Xenocrates]

Second thing, i think a program with a good maths course should produce the more efficient coders (UWI gives you a good maths based to launch off on)and i will give you an example.

- Good point. I would never compare UTECH's math course to UWI's. That would be like comparing a bicycle to a BMW. :icon_mrgr

HOWEVER..

Knowing the math is one thing. Knowing how to apply it is another. I've mentioned before, that knowledge without practical application is trivial. It's like knowing Mike Trebek's middle name. It's ok to know it. As to what use I can make of that knowledge, I've yet to determine.

I'm not saying that UWI students can't code - most of those I know personally are WICKED coders - virtuoso by any comparison! but they are the students who chose the right elective courses, not just the easy ones that will make up the credits for passing the semester. You follow what I'm saying?

UWI should never had given their students that kind of freedom of choice. Cuz then, UTECH would be no comparison. None whatsoever! The only reason why people criticize UWI for being too theory based (and this is a lop-sided criticism) is because the core content of the course (i.e. the core courses) are largely theory based. But this criticism is assinine, because it's the same thing at UTECH. The courses are virtually identical. The difference is that students @ UTECH are required to do highly technical, professional grade courses as well. It's not an option. All you do is choose the field (Enterprise Computing - MCSD or Data Communications - MCSE)

These courses are also available (to some extent) at UWI. But most Comp. Sci. degree students won't choose them because they are difficult courses! Everybody keeps complaining: Networking too hard, I hate programming, I hate binary maths, I cyaa bodda with the whole heap a reading, blah blah blah...

...but they still graduate, because they fulfiled a credit quota, not a skill based educational quota. Most of my UWI grad frenz are skilled IT specialists (they're on this website). But most of them who are not so skilled fell into this same trap (like my cousin who can't even differentiate between third and fourth normal form!). So they leave the university with a degree and no skills. Now how useful is that? The program should never have facilitated that kind of thing happening! That is my criticism!

[Xenocrates]

To become a good IS manager one needs to understand as you stated ealier BPR and other topics that map IS to the organisations overall goals,neither UWI or UTECH does that...

- Au contrar mon ami: These are CORE COURSES at both UTECH and UWI. ;) UWI students tend to have more professional grade lecturers on staff than UTECH. 'Professional' here refers to their role in the IT industry + qualifications, not necessarily their role as educators. Furthermore, UWI lecturers are mostly HIGHLY QUALIFIED educators, many of them with doctorates and Ph.Ds. You can't lecture for some courses @ UWI unless you have a Ph.D. No exceptions.

Subsequently, UWI students are not only graded on the 'correctness' of their work, but also their philosophical and professional presentation. UWI cultures a highly formal minded student body who can speak and write well at the professional level irrespective of the course. UTECH doesn't stress these qualities much. UWI tends to put far more stress on the professionalism of student presentation than UTECH. Subsequently, UWI students can present themselves far better than UTECH students. It's no secret. That my friend atests to the quality of their lecturers. UTECH hasn't matched that level quite yet.

To be perfectly impartial, there are still some elements @ UTECH that tend to resemble more of a vocational academy than a true University. These are what management students would call "organisational growing pains". There are many elements @ UWI which are several hundred notches atop of UTECH. Make no mistake. But these elements are trivial to this discussion. ;)

[smash]

wanna thank yall for the heads up and i was beating my self up over doing some A-levels currently its a good thing

[DejavuXX]

hey where can i get info to apply cuz i've been wanting to get mcse certified as i am mcsa certified so i would just go and do this degree course?

very Intresting!!!

[g2cris]

I am currently a student @ UTECH and think the A Level aproach is a good one because I used to hear a lot of subsequent drop outs complain that UTECH was a money making thing, and frankly i think the average student leaving fifth form isnt ready for the level of work expected by most lecturers.

[entertain_r]

This is a lot to take as a UTECH person. I must say while reading some of these posts I felt somewhat perplexed. I do not like this school of thought which states that UWI students are superior in intellect and UTECH students are simply better at being drones (this is basically what is being said in a lot more words).

Frankly, this issue of UWI students being more geared for management and better coders goes way deeper than math. I think development/background of the student and school's philosophy is what perpetuates this stigma.

Lets face it UTECH generally gets the "wat lef" while UWI gets the "cream of the crop" (obviously not applicable in my case). :D

I don't have the stats but I strongly believe that 1/2 to 3/4 of the students that don't get into UWI end up over UTECH. So academically UWI gets the cream of the crop.

Now, add the fact that most of these new entrants to UWI tend to have a stronger drive to be successful as fostered by say successful/wealthy parents, good teachers, peer pressure, etcetera. UTECH is naturally at a huge disadvantage.

UWI students become managers because that’s what they have been socialized/programmed to become (yes I’m generalizing, but you get what I mean).

Thank God for the late bloomers or else UTECH would really be lost.

Now, I could go on but I'm starting to bore myself. Maybe I will say more in subsequent posts. This is the nature of UTECH students blame our short attention span (most of us have ADD).

I think the 'A' Level requirement is a good move for UTECH. Maybe we will finally get some respect from UWI students.

OH YEAH. OUR COURSES ARE MCSE AND MCDA/MCSD CERTIFIED AND WE ARE BETTER CODERS BY FAR AND WE AREN'T GAY!!! :eusa_danc :eusa_clap

Sorry, I had to get it out :)

[rb_cucchi]

The information in this thread has without a doubt been great! The UWI/UTech rivalry is evident. As long as this is a healthy rivalry, soley competitive in nature, both parties should learn from each other and improve their operations. We all have one thing in common here, we are all very passionate about computers and knowledge in general, and where it/they will take us.

[megiddo]

I went in to utech straight out of fifth form, and personally I agree that A levels should be a requirement. I dont like the idea though. when i went in the work load and setup is a whole lot different than the setup i had on fifth form. in fifth form i had homework every night, and tons of it. Utech, no home work. so u kinda get laid back and stuff. its very easy to fail once u start getting laid back towards your work. so if everyone went to sixth form they would be more mature towards their work, and wouldnt get caught up in the idling as much. my 2 cents

[kevin1386]

These comments on the the fact the uwi produces better mangers is purely a social thing the main fact the there are home life include mangers, so it is expected that hey too fit this profile easier. The creme of the crop thing is a rela thing but not in everycase. beacause its harder to get into utech computing program than uwi's. The whole standing that uwi makes better computing professionals is changing to the latter as everyday goes by.

[Xenocrates]

:eusa_wall

:icon_arro All the guys who have completely misunderstood everything I've said so far:

I'm surprised people still don't understand what I said. Let me speak in simpler terms and highlight where I make contrasts:

Point 1:

UWI's students are allowed to choose more of their courses. In contrast, The only major choices a UTECH student makes is for specializations. As such, most UWI students choose the management (or non-IT) oriented subjects because they are easier to pass for the same number of credits. The result is that from an IT perspective, UWI's Comp. Sci. B.Sc. is less wholesome than UTECH's.

Point 2:

UWI teachers pay an equal amount of attention to correctness as they do to presentation. In contrast, UTECH stresses technical skill over presentation. So students with poor grammar still graduate with top honors, so long as their skill is well demonstrated (a well known problem @ UTECH).

Point 3:

UWI expects their Comp. Sci. students to acquire most technical knowledge on their own. In contrast, UTECH embellishes their students with IT Cert courses as a part of the degree. No choice is offered except for specialization purposes. Short of doing a Master's degree, UWI students are far less ready for the IT job market after the first degree than UTECH students - unless they do some certification outside of UWI (or choose the right courses when doing their B.Sc.).

Conclusions:

UTECH Students have a tendency for:
- Stronger IT skills
- Weaker managerial/communication skills

UWI Students: have a tendency for:
- Weaker IT skills
- Stronger managerial/communication skills

My Advice:

A smart student would do his B.Sc. at UTECH and his M.Sc. at UWI. Before UTECH had a B.Sc., smart people in the past did their Diploma at UTECH and their Masters at UWI. That's smart and balanced IT education if you ask me.

There, I laid it out nice and clear and easy for all to understand. That's all I've been saying from the get go. Was I speaking in Latin in the last 6 or 7 pages?

[megiddo]

when i enrolled at utech, i didnt even apply to UWI, why? cause i heard employers prefer utech students because of their hands on training. but then again uwi also has its pluses, like organisation. I not saying any of them is better or worst, it just depend on what your aim is. my aim is for a more practical experience, and plus im not too strong in math. others may be able to handle theory better. its all up to you.

[g2cris]

Conclusions:

UTECH Students have a tendency for:
- Stronger IT skills
- Weaker managerial/communication skills

UWI Students: have a tendency for:
- Weaker IT skills
- Stronger managerial/communication skills

My Advice:

A smart student would do his B.Sc. at UTECH and his M.Sc. at UWI. Before UTECH had a B.Sc., smart people in the past did their Diploma at UTECH and their Masters at UWI. That's smart and balanced IT education if you ask me.

There, I laid it out nice and clear and easy for all to understand. That's all I've been saying from the get go. Was I speaking in Latin in the last 6 or 7 pages?

Exactly, the average person with a BSc. in Comp. Sci/I.T. isnt a manager. Managerial positions normally require (in addition to a BSc.) international certifications, years of experience or masters degrees (not neccessarily in CompSci/I.T.).



when i enrolled at utech, i didnt even apply to UWI, why? cause i heard employers prefer utech students because of their hands on training. but then again uwi also has its pluses, like organisation. I not saying any of them is better or worst, it just depend on what your aim is. my aim is for a more practical experience, and plus im not too strong in math. others may be able to handle theory better. its all up to you.

Well said no need for anyone to be offended plus many people who manage to graduate had A levels (or some "post high school" education) comming in.

[nder]

- Not true, based on everything I said in the previous post. But it's funny you should say this:


Knowledge is worth zero without application.

- because that is EXACTLY why I wouldn't go do a Comp Sci. Degree @ UWI (at twice the school fee of UTECH!!) for all the aforementioned reasons.

Wait a minute, aren't you supposed to be arguing against my points and not for them? :eusa_thin

Whose side are you on anyway? :icon_mrgr I bet you're doing this now: :eusa_wall

Anyways yute, rest assured; The UTECH people know what they're doing. Their admin does have its issues, but the skillset you leave with is priceless, both in terms of time and money. You of all persons should know that. :)
@XENO I wasn't arguing for or against either really, I was just trying to look at all options. My point about the 3 year degree plus 2 years experience wasn't so much of a "what you will know when you come out" argument as it was a "what experience can teach you" argument. A person who has completed their degree and know what they want to do could spend the two years after their degree honing their skills and establishing themselves in the workplace. This would put them in a better position that the person who has graduated with a wealth of knowledge (3/4 of which they will never use) and no experience (they have never applied their knowlegde). But again, is dependent on a number of factors. To be sucessful with the first option (3 years at UWI), one would have to know what they want and where they intend to go. They could also possibly have the skills and just need the paper. However, not many individuals going into University fit this description. So for the majority, UTech would be a better option. Even if you will not use 3/4 of what you learn, it still gives you a solid foundation and an understanding of fundamental computing principles allowing you to at understand more than what you are paid to do. And this foundation will also make you do what you are paid to do better, owing to the fact that you have a good perspective on computing as a field.

If I were to go back and choose, I would most likely have still choosen UTech. In the end, it is still just one more year than UWI as both schools have a preliminary year for some candidates.

@NASTRO In terms of course content, please don't misunderstand me: I firmly hold that UTech has a more complete course that teaches you a whole lot (if you take the time to learn). And I'm not talking about classroom instruction. Lectures are not for learning. They are for pacing you. If you are going to learn, you need to make the effort to do so. Unfortunately, the system at UTech has a history of punishing people who come there to learn. The system is flawed, so you have to learn early to balance learning with working the system. If you focus on just going along with the system (play their game, swat, pass tests) then you will come out with flying colours and know nothing. If you just focus on learning everything then chances are you will never come out. If you learn to strike the precarious balance AND maintain it, then you may not get the first class honours you want, but you will come out with skills. The point? Its not only about the grades. The grades will come if your purpose is to learn. And try not to let the system kill that spirit. And that is easier said than done.

I hope I did not stray too much from the point of this thread. but I think knowing what to expect at the institution is just as important as knowing the content of the courses. And I wish that I had more people that could have taught me some of the things that I learned the hard way.

[Xenocrates]

Excellent points Nder. I couldn't have said it better. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/Xenocrates/Smilies/2thumbs.gif

[ducatii]

What about the persons who have being working since leaving high school and have no intention to do A levels. They are just saving there money to afford the school fee.

[Xenocrates]

Well look at it this way chief, you still have some options:

- You either get in come September or..
- Make up your mind to do A' Levels or..
- Do EXCED's pre-UTECH programme and start UTECH in year 2

There's always another way. Gook luck. ;)

[rodalembs]

Ok. uummm, I am no genius in this field, but I don't think UWI's Courses are accredited by the UCJ but by an accrediting body out of England. Should this be true then it could be as a result of UWI not necessarily being a Jamaican University, but rather a Trinidad University based in several locations in the caribbean. <correct me if i am wrong on this>

This is good that UTECH has gotten international accreditation through the UCJ. Their courses has been (as we have discussed from time to time) more hands on and practical than that of the UWI.

5 years though is kinda a long time to get just a Bachelors. Just my take on it
Nas is where yu get this madness from :p :p

Please note the UWI is the only institution in the island with ALL its degree programmes accreditied by the UCJ

Alos UWI is not a "Trinidad University" :eusa_naug ;) It is a regional institution funded by the governments of CARICOM. Dude the university started right here at Mona. as the University College. Why you think so many person call the hosptial UC it was the University College Hospital First.


.Histoy of UWI (http://www.mona.uwi.edu/about/index.htm)

[digimar]

Please note the UWI is the only institution in the island with ALL its degree programmes accreditied by the UCJ

Yes but it's also certified by an international accreditation body, not only UCJ.

[Electrotechnic]

Why unu muss dis UWI so???? Maybe cos some of the people there are not as hungry for knowledge as the UTECH students. UWI was up until competition start bite.....like an institute which only previleged or really smart students went. Smart students are normally booksmart because they have a photographic memory. Now the diversity has widened and the next generation of programmers ago tek the industry by storm.

mi haffi seh that still....cos I'm among them...but seriosuly still.....UTECH need a so-called edge but unil you come UWI's graduation then you can't really brag about Digicel's attendance. Maybe is these same UTECH students screwing up the network and sending it to the dogs :eusa_sile :eusa_booh

[Electrotechnic]

LOL Xenocrates!!!

If you know me.....then you know i respect you to the fullest but i'm just tired of hearing UWI bashing. i go to UWI because I get tuition waiver there because my mom works there. My peeps can't afford to send me, my sister, my stepmom and my mom to UWI all at the same time. Are you implying that we are at severe disadvantage because the quality o learning is inferior to UTECH? Well if you did attend UWI's graduation and made a comparison then your argument would be a tad more plausible.

I know I'm gonna get a bashing for committing blasphemy against the great XENOCRATES.....forgive me if i don't bow down to your superior intelligence quotient but thats just my opinion which i'm allowed to express which brings me to the my final statement; Lets just agree to disagree!

[Liquid Bunny]

UTECH rules UWI drools get over it .... hheeeheehe
just kiddin :D



I ask you, what's the point of being highly regarded, if no one understands what they're highly regarding you for? That's like worshipping an idol made of gold because it reflects more light than one made of rock. I don't crave fame my friend. I crave knowledge, wisdom and hard cold facts. Please forgive me if others feel that is a highly admirable thing. ;)

Xeno babes.. u deptid sah...

[leoandru]

UTECH rules UWI drools get over it .... hheeeheehe
just kiddin :D

i have a strong feeling you meant that liquid. anyways mi dun talk, utech anyday ova uwi str8.

peace im out....

[Electrotechnic]

@ Xeno

To each is own. Do what you must. We will all meet in the same working environment because we are all in the same field so its all left to time....the greatest revelator!

@Bunny....wabbit

Um....i too feel you mean it but oh well.....freedom of speech so you're allowed to voice your opinion.


@ Everybody
You reap what you sow.
If you make up your mind and do the work....then none is really better.....!!!!
Quit sticking to the syllabi and swatting past papers to pass. Do some peripheral readings. That will make you more rounded in your field.

[Electrotechnic]

LOL...@ Xeno once more!

Hats off to you sir. I'm not being sarcastic!

[Electrotechnic]

Um...where are the posts by xeno to which i was referring to????????
What is goin on TechJam???

[digimar]

OK. Ppl lets not start that back up again. 10 pages later and we are still doing this? WHY WHY WHY! Just agree to disagree, geez.

[Tekki]

Also a issue i have never heard being addressed is the Fact that Most Utech Lecturers are UWI graduates.There was a time when persons with Diplomas Lectured at Cast.Comparing both institutions i l that the difference is depth versus breadth.I feel UWI comp sci graduates will be better able to create new innovations in the computing industry.

IT is like comparing a CIT graduate to a University Comp Sci student who has just completed say 18 months of studies, at that point the CIT gradiate will be more employable because "he can hit the gorund running" but in the end who will have more potential to move to higher gorund ?

A lot of people are coders but do not understand how a Translator or Compiler works ,why is this info important ?,With large system optimization is often necessary amd the inner workings of a development platform is crucial.

SQL, I Totally agree with u. Most of the IT courses around are geared at getting you a first job but not necessarily to rise to another level of understanding of the fundamental technologies and priciples that govern the technologies they use on a day to day basis. I think that this is the diff between UWI graduates and UTECH, etc. Utech does Enterprise computing which is very relevant today. However, UWI teaches u the fundamentals of algoriths etc that are consistent through all languages and platforms. Therefore it does not take take alot of time for us to learn new languages or technologies. From what i know, Utech, Exced graduates are programmed to work in one area and may not do well elsewhere. But UWI graduates and very rounded.

If I was an emplyer, I would only hier IT persons to do simple taks. Things that i want done in 2 weeks or less. But if i need some1 that will uplift my organisation and is able to adapt to new technologies very quicly then I would def. go for the Computer Scientist from UWI.

Thats a very good Point. UTECH Lecturers are UWI graduate or MSc Computer Science Candidates. Thats a fact.

[Electrotechnic]

OK. Ppl lets not start that back up again. 10 pages later and we are still doing this? WHY WHY WHY! Just agree to disagree, geez.

Why? The thread is not closed. Thanks for the input SQLDBA...but where is XENO??? "O brother, where art thou?" I would love to hear his comments now!

[aonekilla]

what is the big fuss about .... most of the posts prior to this one have basically summed up the situation here .... UWI's and UTECH's BSc degree programs both have their advantages and disadvantages, the thing i like about UTECH is the hands on approach they implement, while UWI can be considered to be more inclined to the theoretical aspects of Computer Science, and this can help in the field of resarch, improved problem soving capabilities , and so on .... it all depends on your personal inclination..... if you are a more practical person then UTECH is for you, else go to UWI ....
the real issue that i see at hand here is whether or not persons are making the right choice in the institution they are selecting to get their BSc in computing ....

and i am saying this because i have seen a number of students at UWI regreting the day they started over here .... all because of ill-advised decisions....

are there provisions in place that enable a student leaving high school to make the right choice .... if so what should be done .... do most of the high school teachers even know the difference between UTECH's and UWI's degree programs ....

i believe that UWI and UTECH can learn alot from each other .... esp in the tayloring of their degree programs to provide a more rounded curriculum in both the practical and the theoretical aspects of computer science....
i am in my final year at UWI and networking is one of the courses i am doin right now ... but unfortunately... due also to some unforseen events ... there is no practical section to this course ..... something which i believe to be very inappropiate .. i mean ... what is point of doing a networking course and you would not be able to set up one, even though i must admit that it would be very easy for me to learn how to after i am finished .... but a course like that should have a practical component ....

and that's all i have to say about this

[juiceheadband]

hey this is a really entertaining thread. Xeno u r a really funny guy (no pun intended:icon_mrgr ).. AK too.

its funny after all this degree deathmatch, its the ppl who dont have any significant computer/IT training are the ones who run the companies and signs your checks.....and most of them are UWI graduates too.

[andy_shawn]

Personally i think the only way somebody can come to a definate answer as to which program is better, is if they did both of them.

[kenroy112]

well i think both schools need more IT degree`s for real specialization, like networking,data communication,game design,animation and computer graphics and information security majors. The computer sci alone isnt enough

[crosswire]

As much as I advocate game design as a specific discipline in computer science, I would have to say that basically, each additional specialized topic would require the student to know about a whole field of stuff before grasping the concept. Eg security requires knowing how ASP, Windows Server Login and IP software, .Net, and a lot of other softwares to understand security in them. Breaking that down to theory would not be much help to the student.

Certificates should be the standard in specialization.

BTW, there is a good curriculum in networking (in comp. sci.), and data communication (in Electronics) at UWI, probably UTech too, and again it is not part of the certificate world such as Cisco certs, or Admin certs etc.

I would even add to the list "optimization", and "parallel programming". They are covered in the degree, but they do not go in-dept to the point of teaching OpenMP, or all the sort algoritms that exists (Please correct me if I am wrong).

Unfortunately, businesses hardly hire in some of the unpopular areas, such as gaming and parallel programming, and I never see any certs for these as interesting as they can be. A good general degree will go far + popular certs

[BlackCryptoKnight]

As much as I advocate game design as a specific discipline in computer science, I would have to say that basically, each additional specialized topic would require the student to know about a whole field of stuff before grasping the concept. Eg security requires knowing how ASP, Windows Server Login and IP software, .Net, and a lot of other softwares to understand security in them. Breaking that down to theory would not be much help to the student.

I don't quite agree with some of what you've said here. Let's look at the security example you've cited. Security in and of itself has it's own theory independent of the many different domains in which it can be applied to. Other disciplines are similar in that regard. So it is in fact plausible for a student to learn the theory and fundamentals of a discipline like security, or even game design, and derive benefit even before embarking on the specializations like application development, or networking etc.

Also, remember, that in a field such as game design, it is very likely that people will be working in teams, and thus will have specialized roles fitting into particular disciplines (graphics, sound, programming, hardware etc.). So though it is useful for the individual to understand the broad spectrum of roles and activities involved in such a project, you really may not need to be as deeply skilled in everything.

A university first degree is supposed to give you that breadth so that you understand the basics, learn to think, and have a foundation for later specialization.


Certificates should be the standard in specialization.
Or a Masters, or a PhD. ;)

[kenroy112]

Unfortunately, businesses hardly hire in some of the unpopular areas, such as gaming and parallel programming, and I never see any certs for these as interesting as they can be. A good general degree will go far + popular certs

hmm thats thinking narrow mindedly, remember most graduates work aboard so you shouldnt seek to think that we all will work in jamaica , after all wi ina gobal village now son.Also dont forget about the CSME. But i seriously think they should have more IT degree though cause devry,ITTech and others have like 5 IT degrees. Personally am going aboard to do my degree in networking administration.

[FalconTech]

yow, i'm at vtdi right now but a want to go to utec next year, are they going to let me do over first year.

[tredoggg]

aww more than likely

[Xenocrates]

yow, i'm at vtdi right now but a want to go to utec next year, are they going to let me do over first year.

- Like Tre sez, it's quite likely. The plus side is that you'll be exempted from about 60 - 80% of the courses. So you could use the free time to work. If you're exempted from 80% of more of the first year subjects, it's quite likely that you will just be bumped to 2nd year.


hey this is a really entertaining thread. Xeno u r a really funny guy

- Th.. Thanks? I... I guess? http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/dunno.gif

[zRo ToLeRaNcE]

- Like Tre sez, it's quite likely. The plus side is that you'll be exempted from about 60 - 80% of the courses. So you could use the free time to work. If you're exempted from 80% of more of the first year subjects, it's quite likely that you will just be bumped to 2nd year


yow, i'm at vtdi right now but a want to go to utec next year, are they going to let me do over first year

Falcon, is VTDI - Vocational Training & Development Institute?? If you want to know if you going to be exempt from 1st year then you have to find out if VTDI has any affliations/agreement with UTECH.

I got an Associate Degree and it didn't garauntee me any exemptions at all (even though i though i would be starting in 2nd year). Unless the institution your attending has some sort of agreement with UTECH, its going to be close to impossible to skip a year and troublesome to get exemptions.

When i switched to UTECH after my Associates Degree, i got exempted from Basic Electronics and got exempted from Coursework in Networking. That was it!! I had to fight to get the second exemption cause the course outline was EXACTLY the same and they denied me. So i wrote a letter and they denied me again. So i wrote a letter and setup a meeting with the Programme Director. It was only then that thye said Ok and exempted me from the course work and but not the final. He then explained to me that yes the course is the same but the way my final was done was too easy (i did a project for my final).

The course outline for my Associate Degree looked similar to the UTECH course outline. However, they said that the final exam wasn't ahrd enough and i had to do UTECH's final exam. Its things like that they consider when they're giving exemptions (only if they don't have an agreement with the institution you applying from).

FT - Be proactive. I wasn't. Take the time and do the research. Talk to the programme directors and programme leaders. They are the ones making the decisions. You can look at your course and match it with Utech's and you still don't get exempt.

[alexdevmaster]

I should also let you know that the UTECH degree program has as of yesterday, secured international accreditation through the University Council of Jamaica. Yeah you heard right. Now we're in a similar league to the University of the West Indies. It's ooon bra. :eusa_danc

But one of the most important revisions has been the following updates: The final year of the degree program has been revised into two majors which succinctly follow industry standard certifications:

Enterprise Computing - Microsoft Certified System Developer/Microsoft Certified Database Administrator. Students will specialize in programming with the Microsoft Visual Studio development Which is the entry-level equivalent.

.
.
.

You heard it on TechJamaica first. Happy Hunting.

What is a Microsoft Certified System Developer? the initials for this is MCSD, the only MCSD I know of is Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer? This however is not an entry-level certification. Not to say that UTech could not follow that curriculum, however it would more like follow the MCAD, Microsoft Certified Application Developer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Certified_Professional

[hottbwoyjp]

:eusa_danc:eusa_dancUTECH A DI BOSS...:eusa_clap

:thumbsdown: UWI :thumbsdown: is jus a place to go to spend 3 years cuz they feel lazy to take 4 comprehensive years to get a real IT degree from UTECH...simple and plain like that...:eusa_wall

[BlackCryptoKnight]

:thumbsdown: UWI :thumbsdown: is jus a place to go to spend 3 years cuz they feel lazy to take 4 comprehensive years to get a real IT degree from UTECH...simple and plain like that...:eusa_wall

lol

Kids today ... :icon_roll

[slo_phkr]

I do believe that Utech is a more practical institution. They prepare you for the working world. UWI kills you with theory.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I do believe that Utech is a more practical institution. They prepare you for the working world. UWI kills you with theory.
lol

I guess I should be thankful that I'm still alive then. :eusa_pray

[slo_phkr]

I went to UWI too and it is a miracle i'm alive :) lol

[gallis]

wah bout vtdi is it good

[gallis]

and if i do cmcs at pcc that can carry u into the second year of utech computer science program

[Utech22]

Is a old post this you dig up.

Once you get exemption with the cmcs you should be able to go to second year.