Computer boot up problem

[DarkAngel]

A few days ago I had a power outage(which happens like every other day lasting like 2-3 seconds so you can just imagine the hell JPS have mi inna) but this time it seems to have affected the system, when I re-boot the system I got an error message that something was wrong in the system BIOS and that I should press F5 to load the optimum setting ( sorry I can't remember the exact error message) so I pressed F5 an it booted normally, I had to reset the system time and date in windows.
Whoever the next morning when I boot up the computer the computer seem to not want to re-boot unless I cut power to the unit for a few seconds and pug it in back I have been doing that ever since and it's getting real tiresome.
Something to note :
1. The system status light is ON
2. The hard drive light is ON continuously
3. The computer seems to be trying to access the CDROM every few seconds (and closes it back when I open it)
What I have done so far:

I suspect that the system is trying to boot from the cdrom so I have checked the BIOS and change the setting to load best perforce settings (just in case the sytem "optimum performance" settingwas too high).
Changed the boot sequence to IDE1 then IDE2.. IDE3 save settings and re-booted the system (same prob.)

Any help will be appreciated

Secondly:
I will be looking to get a cheap UPS when I have the money to purchase one- I know that APC sells the best units (at least that what I am hearing) do you know of any costing in the $2,500 region that would give me anywhere from 2-3 minutes of power?

[Nastrodamus]

What type of motherboard do you have and what version of windows are you running?

You seem to have one of two things a now faulty OS or a faulty motherboard.

Lets have the info the we can troubleshoot it.

[DarkAngel]

Dual boot environment Win2000 and WinMe, default boot OS WinMe.
PC133 systemboard Socket 370 M758 + series (one of those intergrated motherboard from PC Chip)

[Nastrodamus]

Does the system give this same error in both environments?

If it does behave like this in both Win2000 and WinMe then I think you do have a now faulty motherboard. If the error only occurs in one of the windows installations then you have to format that partition and reinstall windows.

[DarkAngel]

The problem happens before you get to the point to select the OS to boot form\to. At this stage also when you press the rest or the power button they simply will not respond at all. :( at this point you will have to kill the power to the system by pluging it out.

P.s the buttons work fine there after.

[Nastrodamus]

I think you may need a new motherboard.

Lets see what the other guys think.

[jamrock]

Power surges like that tend to attack your power supply, motherboard and memory.

I had to replace my power supply last year even though I was on a surge protector. The technician told me to give thanks. It would have been a whole lot worse if I didn't have the surge protector.

Jamaica, no problem mon.

[Nastrodamus]

Well at least this time it is not the power supply. Lets hope you memory hasn't gone bad with your motherboard.

[sicholas]

I suspect you may have bad RAM. try 2 get a stcik of RAM and take out the old1 & put in the new 1 & see if ur system will work, if not the mobo is the problem :(

[tech_guru]

From this Problem...

I got an error message that something was wrong in the system BIOS and that I should press F5 to load the optimum setting ( sorry I can't remember the exact error message) so I pressed F5 an it booted normally, I had to reset the system time and date in windows.

It seems your CMOS battery has gone bad try replacing with a known working spare......

If that fails I would say get a new motherboard....

[Chris]

I would try a new CMOS battery first like Tech_Guru suggested.

If that doesn't help, I'd then try another known working power supply.

If that doesn't help then I'd suspect the hardrive next. The hard drive you ask? Yes. I've seen damaged hard drives create strange problems even before booting starts. Try another hard drive in your machine. I know that it won't necessarily boot smoothly (especially with Win XP), but if it passes the initial problems of pressing F5 etc. then you know the source of the problem.

If the hard drive test still doesn't resolve the problem then it may be the motherboard and you may have to bit the bullet and get a new one.

Whatever the source of the problem whether it's power supply, RAM, hard drive, mother board, etc. remember that you'd better run out and buy a replacement before May 1st! ;)

[Nastrodamus]

Hard Disk?????

Well it is possible. You could check for the faulty Hard Disk from now. By unplugging your hard drive, and trying to boot using a bootable floppy to dos.

If you problem continues with the hard drive missing then your hard drive isn't a problem.


Thanks for the insight ;)

[Ropy]

I know how u feel DarkAngel, you’re not the only one. I had a similar problem recently... Faulty power from JPS damaged the CPU fan connector on my system also my UPS. After trying to solve the problem the CPU was burnt, I got a new one... Some time after CPU FAN2 died but I realized and switched to an unused connector before it was too late. But every time I tried shutting down the machine it would freeze after saving... And system would run test on my Hard Drive every time I start up. I was using Win2k and a MSI motherboard. And weeks after the HD gave way, week after the HD my memory gave way also but that was kinda my fault. And the PS2 connectors died one after the other... Forcing me to use a USB Keyboard and a PS2 to Serial connector for my mouse.

Here is my solution:
1. Change the CMOS battery....
2. Try a different HD in your system, if problem is the persist...
3. Change the motherboard or it may damage the HD if it's good & memory too...
4. Keep a close eye one both the HD and memory, cause they also may have been damaged...
5. A new floppy may also be needed... cause mine is like on and off...

Basically I need half a new system...That's how I see it. Maybe someone might come up with a solution that is easier on your pocket... But at the end of the day you should be thankful, cause at times when I turn on my system it will just crash. When it was running perfectly the night before.... Good luck though....

[Gillion]

Just a point... When you loose power to a computer the spinning hard disk will invariably drop in RPM. Now at a certain RPM number the disk heads will come into contact with the rotating platters. This will un-doubtedly SCRAPE the disk surface, causing damage to disk and data. In such a case, a NEW hard drive is required. So the fact that your having booting problems may indicate such a situation. A hard disk, during proper shutdown, MUST park its heads to prevent "dragging" on the disk surface. This is what the shut down procedure in windows accomplishes, along with other things. When you loose power to the disk when it is running worse when it is acessing data,the heads will CRASH on the disk surface.
Now Loosing JPS power momentarily is NOT a power surge, it is a brown out (a form of power failure) and ONLY a UPS can protect you in such an instance. A surge will usually follow a brown out, this is where surge surpression is critical. However if a computer losses power for 2-3 seconds during a brown out/power fail, thats it you can't be hit by a surge because the machine is now off :D
Now let me have some fun and prattle on about things that may have no bearing on your situation...

First question, do you have your CMOS setup for "Instant Power Off" or "Power off delay for 4 seconds ?"

Most computers provide this feature to prevent accidental shutdown. IF you find that you have trouble shutting down the machine try holding down the power button for 4 seconds or 6. This may solve a part of your problem. If not enter your CMOS setup and go to wherever your power settings are located and change the power button behaviour to instant off.

Second question, did you get any further BIOS messages about "Cmos checksum error ?" This is undoubtedly the message you saw the first time, what about the second third or fourth time... what messages did you seee ?

Most modern BIOS designs implement a POST routine at boot. They provide 2 modes. Quick and SLOW. The quick method is the defacto standard for most users however, by default when you loaded "Optimal settings" from the BIOS menu Press F5), it will return to the SLOW POST mode. Please check you CMOS settings and verify if it is on QUICK POST OR SLOW.

Third question, do you hear a clicking sound or a whir from the hard drive ? A clicking sound "repetitive over a 3 to 6 second interval is the sure sign of a dead drive. You may need to replace said drive. I already provided an idea as to how this could happen.

The reason the hard drive light stays on is that upon boot up, the IDE controller (BOTH ) are palced in a high priority mode. That means the controllers are in a virtual constant read mode, waiting for the ipl to read the mbr and load ntloader into RAM (You use windows 2000 it uses NT loader). Thus until the ipl hands over to ntloader, or until it can read your MBR the hard drive light will remain on. So call it that the ide contorllers are in perpetual init # 14 or is int#13 not sure... anyway that being said your CDROM will always close the drive door and attempt to read as the BIOS is searching for that special signal that all is good.

Fourth question, do you have your ide devices set for auto detect ? This is found on the first page of the CMOS settings.

That being said, if you have the devices on auto and they do not respond you have a) A loose ide cable, b) A dead drive on the cable most likely a dead hard disk. When you manually enter the drive settings your bios will no longer "search" for a drive it will just run straight for it... in such a case a dead or missing drive will undoubtedly slow you up and you MUST see an error message to that fact.
This will happen if and only if your in manual mode.
Conversly if you are in auto ONLY a dead drive will cause an exception/error message to pop up when you attempt to boot.


A good diagnostic is to remove all drives from the ide controller (plug dem out) and watch the system, it sould tell you whats up. If all is okay on the hardware front then you will see a no system disk or disk fail error. On completing this test put back the primary drive (boot) and reset the system. If the drive causes the system to hang by NOT getting to the "no system disk error" then thats the culprit . If you GET TO a non system disk error then its ok, your mbr is shot... which leads me to another point.


Eventhough your mbr may be intact, your ntloader may be corrupt. In such an instance re-install.

BAD ram issues are only valid if you get a post code beep from the main board. If you recieve no post code beeps then the RAM is good. The first 640 k of ram is critical therefore, ntloader should run and you should see some indication that its attempting such a thing. If you get a crash at a certain point repeatedly then the ram is screwed. Removing your ram and attempting to start the machine is the best way to find out what kind of sound the machine makes when it has no ram.

Dead cpu is possible... if and only if the machine presents no screen. :D
As for other possible power issues... if your power control chip is shot... then you can experieicen the problems you have with shut down, but by the mere fact that you can power on the sytem means your bios is responding and your pwower chips is intact. Your atx power supply if is not a cheap chinese built clone, should have a power good signal to the main board if that singal fails the machine should shutdown.... or as we say in my indeustry "crowbar".

Let me know if i was of any help.
--regards
Gillion

[Cultus]

Anyways Darkangel. I think you have enough info to start your diagnosis. With what you said though... I would first check in this order the :-
1) CMOS Battery
2) Hard Drive
3) Power Supply
4) Mainboard

from your post, you said the machine has a problem re-booting unless you cut the power. Your machine can therefore boot., hence memory is ok, your CPU is obviously ok since you can boot into windows....I had a similar problem and the power supply/harddrive was at fault. My mainboard was great. Anyways Gillion has said everything you need to know with his very informative post., so tell us the outcome.
Cultus....

[DarkAngel]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, trust mi this post have provided a wealth of information, guess I have a lot of work cut out for me if the warrantee on the system has expired cause mi no have no money fi buy no parts. Now to the issues.

First just in case there is any misunderstanding, I am able to boot into windows and use the computer normally as a matter of fact I am using it now to type this response (believe it or no while I am typing this response I just had another one of those 3 sec power outage >:( )anyway



Second question, did you get any further BIOS messages about "Cmos checksum error?" This is undoubtedly the message you saw the first time, what about the second third or fourth time... what messages did you see?

Error message only appeared once. No further error messages.

OK I don't want to open the system to do the various diagnostic test just yet, because I am not sure if the warrantee on the system has expired and I don't want to risk voiding it, I have been searching for the invoice for a couple of hours now no luck so far finding it.
I will check the BIOS settings as suggested by Gillion first, if that don't work, find that warrantee paper and if (god forbid) the warrantee is up then I will have to start running the various diagnostic test suggested.
You will hear from me in a few days and thanks again for all the help.....

[Gillion]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, trust mi this post have provided a wealth of information, guess I have a lot of work cut out for me if the warrantee on the system has expired cause mi no have no money fi buy no parts. Now to the issues.

First just in case there is any misunderstanding, I am able to boot into windows and use the computer normally as a matter of fact I am using it now to type this response (believe it or no while I am typing this response I just had another one of those 3 sec power outage >:( )anywayError message only appeared once. No further error messages.

OK I don't want to open the system to do the various diagnostic test just yet, because I am not sure if the warrantee on the system has expired and I don't want to risk voiding it, I have been searching for the invoice for a couple of hours now no luck so far finding it.
I will check the BIOS settings as suggested by Gillion first, if that don't work, find that warrantee paper and if (god forbid) the warrantee is up then I will have to start running the various diagnostic test suggested.
You will hear from me in a few days and thanks again for all the help.....



Based on the new information you presented this leaves very little in the way of a bad drive being at fault. I would however encourage you to enabel SMART drive features in your BIOS in order to detect hard disk errors and save your data if indeed your disk has been dmaged by frequent power outs.

On that note, if you were running Linux, the kernel would have already told you that the disk is preparing to die... Windows... one day... may just.... STOP!!!... PERIOD !!!

As for the fact that your time settings remain constant, your newest CMOS settings have not changed. The CMOS is the actual guy that uses the battery. That being said I would venture that your battery is VERY OK. The modern BIOS designs on most mainboards report a BAD battery when the voltage on the CMOS drops below 2.2 volts. This is also relative to the particular CMOS design and the power that the RTC clock of your computer uses. Nevertheless, your battery is good.

Question: When you select shutdown in Windows ? after a period of time, when it closes your programs, do you get a black screen, a stall, or a screen indicating its now safe to turn off your computer ?. There is a setting in Windows that has to be enabled in order to to shutdown your computer via ACPI BIOS commands. Especially with Win2k. Therefore check your power settings in Windows (tm)(r)(c).
The icon should look like a bloody plug if I can remember.
Anyways Even though this feature is originally a laptop feature it has filtered over to ATX systems. This allows things like suspend and hibernate to function. Which leads me to another question ...
CAN YOU HIBERNATE ?
And what happens when you press the power key while running windows. Windows 2000 should AUTOMATICALLY begin a shutdown sequence when you press either the power key on your keyboard or your power switch on the cpu.
What happpens ???

Why am I asking all these questions.... aside from being drunk and faaasss.... I suspect (as I mentioned before ::) that your power settings in bios have been changed to BIOS defaults when you pressed the EVIL F5 key.
If you have not enabled the ACPI abilities in BIOS and in Windows; Windows will never shutdown and your hard disk light WILL REMAIN ON because it is now in a perpetual write mode. All the critical data that windows wants to save is being flushed to disk.

This is why mi ask dem specific questions... I am more interested in the keyboard/cpu power button issue however and the hibernate feature.

So whats the story ?
--regards
GILLION

[DarkAngel]

I have tried all the suggestions re the BIOS settings but no luck



CAN YOU HIBERNATE ?
And what happens when you press the power key while running windows. Windows 2000 should AUTOMATICALLY begin a shutdown sequence when you press either the power key on your keyboard or your power switch on the cpu.
What happpens


Yes the system can hibernate and yes the system shutdowns down normally- using power button, windows shutdown command, and the keyboard.



Question: When you select shutdown in Windows ? after a period of time, when it closes your programs, do you get a black screen, a stall, or a screen indicating its now safe to turn off your computer ?. There is a setting in Windows that has to be enabled in order to to shutdown your computer via ACPI BIOS commands. Especially with Win2k. Therefore check your power settings in Windows (tm)(r)(c).....

yes the system shutdowns down normally- using power button, windows shutdown command, and the keyboard.
what happens is normal, the system close all open appz and then the computer powers down completly (all lights on computer turns off i.e HDD and Status) the screen "its now safe to turn of computer" does not appear the screen just goes blank then the lights turn off on the computer- which is how it normally works ever since i got the computer.




try hold down the power button for 4-6 sec ...



I did not find the instant off feature in the BIOS but thats OK the above suggestion actually works (so i don't need to plug the system out again when the boot up problem occures)


Do you have your ide devices set to auto detect


option not found for that




I would however encourage you to enabel SMART drive features in your BIOS in order to detect hard disk errors and save your data if indeed your disk has been dmaged by frequent power outs.


I remember seeing this option set to disable i will follow you suggestion and enable it

As suggested it seems one of two thing my be the problem, the power supply or HDD.
BTW i have found the invoice and the warentee is still valid luckly only two months of the one year remain so i will carry it in some time next week to get it repaired.


Thanks for all the help Gillion your trouble shooting suggestions have been most useful and i am sure that it will come in very usefull for other related problems that other board members may have, come to think of it maybe you should write an article on trouble shooting hardware problems.