CD's Vs DVD's

[Nastrodamus]

Do you think that DVD's will ever take over totally for CD's?

[MiTcHiE]

Very soon Nas, only thing holding back dvd r media is that they have 2 types battling it out to be the standard, and other brands not being compliant to both standards - Dvd+R and Dvd-R. I am not sure if they have more.

If ur familiar with dvd blanks, u will no doubt know how easy it is for them to be scratched after u burn some data on them. U have to handle them with care. Dvd will however sooner or later will remove cds completely because 4.7 gb compared to 700mb is a huge improvement. I give cdrs maybe 2 years to be like what vhs is today. Very sad, VHS was spectacular in its day. Soon we will be saying the same about cdrs. It has had a long time in the world of tech though, and thats not a common thing nowadays.

[seanbee20]

I totally agree with Mitchie, CDs pretty soon will be a media of the past.

I think the bigger questions though is: How long will DVD's last. I am betting that pretty soon another media will come out which will do the same to DVD as what DVD is doing to CDs. It is just how technology works - always evolving

[wheelman]

No time soon Nastro...

Its gonna take a substantial price drop for the DVD burners until the media becomes mainstream cuz. But if more persons have a DVD burner then the usage or sales of DVD media would go up, hence it becoming mainstream.

look on the availability/price of blanks per 100 or even per 50 as compared to DVD's.

[Xenocrates]

Concordantly Mitch, there is also the DVD-RAM standard which is trying to gain some face in the market. Unfortunately, it is the least supported standard out there. But my question to you all is this:

Have you noticed any structural or functional differences between the DVD+R and the DVD-R standard?

If you were to choose a "better" standard, which would it be?

What applications do you think best serve either standard?

[OE]

I too think it is just a matter of time, 9GB DVD media is just around the corner (for the mainstream) but how long will that last. The group of companies behind the DVD format has approved a next-generation rewritable optical disc HD-DVD (High Definition and High Density-DVD) that is the same size as existing DVDs but can hold up to 20GB.

Existing DVD formats:

DVD-ROM - 4.7GB storage capacity,can be accessed in set top DVD players and computers

Cannot be written to by the user

DVD-R - can record on 4.7GB and 9.4GB DVD-R discs, can be accessed in set top DVD players and computers

Can only be written to once by the user

DVD-RAM - is re-writable many times, available in capacities up to 9.4GB, can only be accessed in a DVD-RAM drive

Cannot be used in set top DVD players or computers equipped with DVD-ROM drives

DVD-RW - can be written to up to 1,000 times,
can be accessed in set top DVD players and computers

DVD-RW discs may not play back on some older or entry-level DVD systems

DVD+R - can record on 4.7GB DVD+R discs,
can be accessed in set top DVD players and computers equipped with DVD-ROM drives

DVD+RW - can record on 4.7GB DVD+RW discs,
can be accessed in set top DVD players and computers equipped with DVD-ROM drives

DVD+RW discs may not play back on some older or entry-level DVD systems



Regards,

OE

[wheelman]

Couldn't have said it better OE,

great Info ;)

[Xenocrates]

Ok, the info is fine, but which standard in your opinion is universally the best one? Or is there no best one?

Additionally, still unanswered is, which format best suits which purpose in your opinions?

For example: Which format is best suited for:
- Writing files 'n such
- Writing DVD video
- Writing digital audio
etc.

[seanbee20]

This is just my personal preference. I think that -R is the best format: in terms of price and in terms of the amount of DVD drives able to read this format.

In my opinion, the -R is more of a standard at this point

[Xenocrates]

Yeah, I been getting that a lot. Anyone else corroborating the same thing?

[OE]

Xeno, I think price and compatibility are the determining factors. DVD-R drives can be had for under $100 US and the cost of -R media is still lower than all other formats so the choice is clear. For now anyway.

The next gen DVDs I spoke of will use Blue Laser technology (Blue light has a shorter wavelength than the red light used in CD and DVD systems and so the laser beam makes a smaller spot on the disc surface. That means each bit of data takes up less space on the disc and so more data can be stored on a disc) and hardware supporting this technology can be had for $350 US.

[MiTcHiE]

I dont think Dvd -R is better at all, or else it wouldnt be so much cheaper than +R, and as far as I know +R is more compatible when compared to -R.

Y do u guys think -R is so much cheaper than +R???

[kirkcaldyj]

Hey Guys

I still prefer Magnetic Solid State Media....I will inclose info on Pixie Dust and new technology from IBM....ready and tell me what you think....

2001
Pixie dust to the rescue AFC media is expected to increase current areal density limits by fourfold, to surpass 100 gigabits/inch2,
a level once thought impossible. Continued growth of data density is
crucial to feed the informationhungry Internet economy and help
hasten the transition in home entertainment from passive analog
technologies to interactive digital formats.

IBM's Travelstar laptop hard disk drive is the industry's first with a
new magnetic data storage media called antiferromagnetically-coupled
(AFC) media.

[Xenocrates]

I'm having a beast of a time ascertaining HARD facts as to which standard is better for whatever reason. So far, I'm coming up empty. I'm only seeing the same thing OE posted earlier. But I'm not getting any hard cold FACTS as to which is better than the other for particular applications. That's the part that annoys me just a little bit.

Price can't be used as a determinant. It's not a static variable when comparing technology to technology.

[MiTcHiE]

But I am curious as to the price difference, In JA +r can run u $150, while -R can run u $90. Y is that???

[Xenocrates]

In the US, DVD+Rs are 1 dollar more expensive that DVD-Rs (on average). That would account for the $60 difference in price out here. However, technologywise, one website states that DVD+Rs are better than DVD-Rs because:


DVD+R/W has some "better" features than DVD-R/W such as lossless linking and both CAV and CLV writing.

Source: www.dvdrhelp.com/dvd.htm

However, it is still less compatible in drives than the DVD-R. I'm yet to determine what these fundamental feature differences really are. I'm looking for detailed explanations.

[Ropy]

I have backed up many movies as well as data and have not seen a difference what-so-ever as it relates to performance, reliability, speed and structural integrity.

The real difference lies in the cost per disc, how it was manufactured and advertisement. It's like G&D trying to out sell a similar product that one of its competitors has. Although there are devices on the market which only support one type of media (+r/rw or -r/rw). I all boils down to personal preference because most if not all hardware manufactures supporting both medias in order to capture more customers.

If you planning to get a writer, get the Sony DRU530A. See below like for specs on the DRU530A >>>http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02X1709021X3544665/qid=1081186870/sr=1-/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4/102-2638751-7702557

[Ropy]

But I am curious as to the price difference, In JA +r can run u $150, while -R can run u $90. Y is that???


I get my +rs for $60. ;D

Xeno.

Youth Just get a the writer mentioned above and test the medias for yourself. How long do you research a product before you actually buy it?

[deakie]

OE is the closest in addressing the issue.....actually xeno, if you want the low down, go to dvdforum.org. these are the guys who decide the format.

now with respect to your question.

dvd-r rules. no two ways about it. why? well the difference between + and - r is simply one of manufacturers. as with betamax and vhs, the one who wins is the one supported by the most manufacturers. now sony is part of the team that did +r if i aint mistaken but their drives are all dual format. hence most manufacturers are now doing the same. -r is compatible with more players and burners than +r. its very much more supported.
i use -r for movies all the time and my tests with +r have been less than welcome. -r is now half the price of +r and is the way forward.

i noticed in OE's list that rw dvd would play in players. this is only true of some players that accept the rw standard as thee discs are preformatted already for data mainly. as such, they dont conform with loads of players. if they did, their sales would be pushing the limits. same way their is difference with cd rw standards and reg cd's.

dvdrom is not writable by current home technology as its dual layer. dual layer dvd roms require burners that start at 30,000 us dollars. they belong to the movie market. their is a small technological difference in how they are made but thats irrelevant at this stage.

when selecting dvd's to buy, stick with the cheaper datawrite/roxio brand. though its best to test with singles first to get the best from your dvd. bulpaq brands are yeeeuuuccchhh and result in loads of coasters. stay away from red and yellow label dvds. they are baaaad news. forget their data quite quickly. this is the difference between good and bad brands. ppl think because they burn ok then thats it. noooo, their is the problem of the dye becoming unstable too over time. hence the difference.
the scratching is only a problem due to smaller write cells and not of plastic. less tolerant when the readback function cant see the data.

cd's are almost exticnt as the price of dvd burners are almost matching cd burners of last year. shop around to get a good deal. look out for the guys who were selling them first and go for a newer model as its likely they have corrected their kinks by now. newbies may not have so watch out for that.

hope this sets you straight in your purchase plans ma friend and if you need more info, shout me or go to the dvdforum like i said. ;)

[Xenocrates]

Actually Ropy, every review out there asserts that the:

Plextor PX-708A/SW 8X Multiformat Internal DVD±RW Drive (http://reviews.cnet.com/Plextor_PX-708A/4505-3205_7-30479221.html?tag=search)

is the ultimate burner out there now (and the fastest one of the lot). Check the reviews yourself. This is the only drive that can burn a +R at 8x!! So you see, I'm not so much concerned about the drive. I want to know what the big deal is between the +R and -R. And Ropy, Sometimes I review a product for months before I buy. ;) I usually like to be damn sure before I shell out my hard earned cash ;D.

[Xenocrates]

Found the following:

DVD+R is a dvd disc that allows multiple layers for one disc where as DVD-R only allows one layer. Multi layer DVD+R can allow extra capacity per disc than DVD-R hence its high cost.

[MiTcHiE]

Do u mean as in Overburning on cdrs?? Is this a similar concept??

[Ropy]

Actually Ropy, every review out there asserts that the:

Plextor PX-708A/SW 8X Multiformat Internal DVD±RW Drive (http://reviews.cnet.com/Plextor_PX-708A/4505-3205_7-30479221.html?tag=search)

is the ultimate burner out there now (and the fastest one of the lot). Check the reviews yourself. This is the only drive that can burn a +R at 8x!! So you see, I'm not so much concerned about the drive.


I have to disagree Xeno, that review was done way before Sony released its 8x burner dubbed “DRU-530A”. Also, it was written June 1, 2003 and they were talking about the Sony DRU-510A. Don’t you think that review is outdated now? ??? Here is a more upto date review which was written on March 19, 2004. Let's see you backup your previous post. ;D


Sony DRU-530A review - better than the Plextor PX-708A (http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/products/jump/0,24331,3646326,00.html)

[matronyx]

You know...when you think of it, the lil guy on the corner of the road selling duped cds from his cart makes money. He doesn't think that the next guy coming up to him might want a DVD instead of a regular old cd.
A lot of people still use discmans, still have a cd player and not a dvd player in their cars. Hey, not evryone uses a cd to store pictures, games and the such. They just want their music.

When more people start playing mp3s then a DVD would be preferable. Video games are begining to require DVD storage capabilties.
Maybe in another 3 years we will start piling up DVD coasters ::)
I don't see that happening sooner....
Look, the floppy is still around ;D

[deakie]

the dvd +r multi layer dvd's are dual sided, not single sided.
no label side. thats a cheap trick. 2 for the price of one??
if it was real dual layer, it wouldnt have any use to the home consumer. the home burners just arent capable of that just yet. would be a complete waste of money if thats the case :D

[Ropy]

I have always wondered about the physical size of the multi layered dvds. Are they thicker than the normal dvds or are they just two disk squished together? ???

[deakie]

same size....just look at a movie dvd disc....just that the layers are thinner inside and the trick is in the offset. not sure how its done. never looked it up. :D

[Xenocrates]

For Ropy & Deakie (and everyone else):

I did some research (calling around - checking people, websites, magazines etc.) and I came up with the following information:

The multilayered technology exists for a single side. The idea is that there are several layers on top of each other. These layers can be written to/read from on one-side of the disc. There is a difference between a double-sided disc and a double-layered disc.

How is this done?

By Focussing the beam. When the frequency modulation of the beam leaving the DVD lens is altered, it allows the beam to pass through certain transparencies, and not others.

Think of a single multi-layered DVD as being three panes of glass, one behind the other. In between these panes of glass is a fluid-like substance. That means there are two layers of fluid. The pane on top is transparent. The pane in the middle is not so transparent, in fact, think of it has having slight patterns on it, causing some amount of light refraction. The final pane of glass is merely a mirror.

When the DVD-ROM needs to access the first layer, the beam is focussed normally so that it travels directly through the first pane of glass, but gets reflected by the second pane. When the beam is reflected, the light that returns to the DVD Lens has to pass through the fluid between the first and second layers. As such, the beam is now slightly altered in colour, wavelength, frequency etc. This alteration represents the data encoded in the fluid at the first level.

When the DVD-ROM needs to access the second level, the beam is re-focussed so that it travels through the first and second layers of glass hitting the final pane which directly reflects the beam. Passing through the fluid on the second level alters the beam on its way back out in such a way that it represents the data encoded on the second level. The beam is not affected by the fluid on the first layer, since it's frequency modulation is such that neither the second layer glass nor the first layer fluid changes it at all.

In reality, multi-layered DVDs have many more than 2 layers. In fact, almost all DVDs are like this. This is part of the reason why so much data can fit on a disc with the same physical dimensions of a CD-ROM. A DVD-ROM disc is only a few micro inches thicker than a standard CD-ROM disc. It's difficult to tell with the naked eye.

[Xenocrates]

And now for the ultimate question for which I've long sought an answer:

Which one is better? DVD+R/RW or DVD-R/RW?

The answer lies in what you intend to do with the disc.

The major difference between +R and -Rs exists in how the data is encrypted at the different layers on the disc. Use the following guide to determine which disc you should buy:

If you need to buy a rewriteable DVD, stick with DVD+RWs.

The re-writeable standards for DVDs were invented and defined by the +R alliance and these principles are what are loosely modified for DVD-RWs. There are several reasons why you should stick with a DVD+RW if you need a rewriteable DVD:

DVD+RWs can be written to on many more levels on the same side than DVD-RWs. This does not change the data capacity - it's still 4.7 Gb. However, the +RWs use more layers with less tightly packed clusters. This is why...

DVD+RWs can be written to at up to 8x (Only the Plextor PX-708A/SW 8X Multiformat Internal DVD±RW Drive is capable of doing this at this point). DVD+RWs burn faster because the beam spends less time on each layer focussing the burn since each layer has it's clusters more loosely packed than on a DVD-RW. Standard write speed to DVD+RWs is 4x. DVD-RWs can only be written to up to 2x. So you spend half the time (a quarter the time if you own a Plextor) writing to a DVD+RW than you do a DVD-RW.

DVD+RWs use a file-allocation standard that avoids loss-less linking. That means that contiguous files are stored with pointers to each other. DVD-RWs use the table of contents method to reference files (similar to how it is done with CD-Rs and CD-RWs) - which means files written to a DVD-RW can suffer cyclic redundancy check (CRC) faults after they're written to the disc. There is a very high fault rate with DVD-RWs because of this. Therefore, data written to a DVD+RW is many times safer than that on a DVD-RW.


If you need just a standard write-once disc, the DVD-R is a better choice than the DVD+R. The DVD+R is still a safer disc to write to, but it's cluster arrangement is non-standard with most older DVD-ROM drives (particularly those that exclusively play movies).

So, choose a DVD-R when you need to:

Do standard permanent file storage (i.e. primarily for computer usage). DVD+Rs will do the trick, but their extra features are unnecessary and only make them too expensive for such a simplistic purpose. These extra features are better suited for rewriteable DVDs. Furthermore, the cluster allocation differences on a DVD+R will make those discs incompatible with older DVD-ROMs. The data will be just as error free on a DVD-R as they are on a DVD+R. So in this case, the choice comes down to price.

Create DVD Movies or Backing up DVD movies. It is crucial that you only use DVD-Rs for this purpose. Most DVD movie players only read the -R standard for cluster allocation. That means if you copy a DVD movie onto a +R, be prepared to have the disc rejected by most DVD players.

Create Audio DVDs - for the same reasons mentioned above.

Create backups of Videogames. Playstation 2 and XBOX video games are written to -R standard DVDs. That means, if you have modded your console gaming system, ONLY USE DVD-Rs to backup your games. +Rs are not read by the Playstation 2 or XBOX consoles - not even when modded. There are drives out there that you can replace the DVD-ROM in the PS2 and XBOX with that will allow you to play +R backups. It is rumored that some +Rs will work with the consoles, but I have no experience in that area. So it's always safer to go -R for this purpose.


-=[Edit]=-

- Oh, I forgot to mention: DON'T TRY TO OVERBURN DVD-Rs!! You'll be making yourself an INSTANT COASTER. DVD+Rs are far better suited for overburning. Because of their design (see notes above), they can hold up to about 4.9 Gb of data (0.2 Gb more than the standard). Hence they support overburning quite easily. Some DVD+R brands allow up to 5.0 Gb! :o But good luck in finding them. ;)

-=[End-Edit]=-

Disclaimer: Those of you unscrupulous enough to use this information for burning games or DVD movies you didn't purchase, do so at your own risk. You are allowed to legally make 1 backup of DVD movies or videogames that you own. However, If you are caught distributing DVD movies or games using this method, neither www.TechJamaica.com, nor it's owners, members, operators, moderators etc. cannot and will not be held responsible. This information is freely available on the internet (as well as instructions on how to build bombs). You use this information at your own discretion.

I hope this info was helpful. It sure helped make some of my decisions a lot easier.

[deakie]

thx for the info on the double layer.......

as for the disc info......den nuh it me a tell yu iah....me dun tess aff all a dem yu nuh..... :D ;D

[Xenocrates]

I have to disagree Xeno, that review was done way before Sony released its 8x burner dubbed “DRU-530A”. Also, it was written June 1, 2003 and they were talking about the Sony DRU-510A. Don’t you think that review is outdated now? ??? Here is a more upto date review which was written on March 19, 2004. Let's see you backup your previous post. ;D


Ropy, Ropy, Ropy.... my good brejin Ropy....I'd like you to take a whiff at the following review. Read and weep:


The DRU-530A gives other formats a speed boost, pushing DVD+R writing to 8X, CD-R to 40X and CD-RW to 24X, but it does so in the wake of Plextor's remarkable PX-708A, which writes DVD+R at 8X -- to 4X-rated media, no less -- and CD-R/RW at 40X/24X

And the clincher:


Although the DRU-530A is faster than its predecessor and is a decent burner, it writes slower than Plextor's PX-708A and it can’t write DVD+R at 8X on less-expensive 4X media. In short, the DRU-530A will serve you well, but not quite as well as the excellent competition.

Source: ZDNet Reviews (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/zdnetuk/reviews/hardware/cddvddrives/0,39023790,39118866,00.htm)

You can't rely on TechTV to do these benchmarks Ropy. Their tests are not as comprehensive and as exhaustive as those done by the Ziff-Davis network (of which C/NET is a part). These are the guys who INVENTED the Winstone Benchmarking system!

Overally the Plextor is the FASTEST DVD±RW Burner out there right now with the HIGHEST level of compatibility with burned discs across other DVD drives. The numbers don't lie. I'm sure by this Ropy, you should be swimming in tears.

You want us to start a burner wars up in here a la Seanbee's Video card wars? ;D ;D ;D That'd be fun to be honest..... ;D

I've said it once and I'll say it again:

The Plextor PX-708A/SW 8X Multiformat Internal DVD±RW Drive is the ULTIMATE DVD±RW Burner.


End of Story.

[deakie]

only because it burns dodgy cd's and dvd's.....we want something more stable and professional like the sony.
plextor sounds like a fly by night gizmo that soon burn out :D
stick with the sony ropes, these plextor boys all wear nylon, we wear cashmere..... :P built to last ropes, built to last.... :D
thats my volley...... ;D

[ramesh]

I found it online for US$186.99 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000AZJXV/qid=1081638749/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl147/002-1947520-8392007?v=glance&s=pc&n=507846)
Umm, any one wants to buy a slightly used Optorite DVD +/- R +/-RW? ;D

[Xenocrates]

I prefer to buy these things by the numbers, not the names. How come you haven't heard of Plextor Deakus? ???

Da brejin ya star..... ;D ;D ;D Yu a disrespect a don name boss! 8)

Bossman, Plextor was one of the FIRST companies to make a CD-Burning drive. They are one of the companies that makes the professional $10,000 DVD-Presses that they used to copy commercially used DVD movies and games.

Therefore, it is no small wonder why they have the top drive!

Nuff respect to the Sony Drives - but you still have to download a firmware update so that it can do business with the DVD-R/RWs!! :o :o - That's just not acceptable...

Remember that Sony is a part of the +RW alliance! (aka the bad guys) ;D ;D ;D

Again (like how Seanbee advocates ATI) ;D :


Plextor Rulez!! http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/16619/bang.gif

[Chris]

I know of Plextor's good reputation from CD burning days but they tend to be a little more pricier than other brands.

I'm a bit skeptical of their ability to burn at 8x to 4x media, I mean, that's overburning and may result in unreliable burns :-\

[OE]

I know of Plextor's good reputation from CD burning days but they tend to be a little more pricier than other brands.

I'm a bit skeptical of their ability to burn at 8x to 4x media, I mean, that's overburning and may result in unreliable burns :-\


I can vouch for the Plextor drive Chris. I have one running in a system and I can burn a full 4x DVD @ 8x in about 15 minutes :o I've gone through 20 or so DVDs and I've had no coasters.

[deakie]

OE...yu luv spen yu money eeeh! ;D

me know seh plextor a badboyz still.....caan deny dat....but like everyting me have as electronic that i really like is sony and samsung :-X

as far as im concerned...they have one of the baddest design team......sony rulez A OK..... ;D :D :P

still, im not selling dvd's yet so im not too worried bout speed....i can wait.....15mins yu say oe.....i must see how long mine tek...neva did check.....

[ramesh]

If I'm not mistaken, Plextor was the first CD burner with buffer underrun protection, which was why it was the first CD burner I ever bought (1997). After bringing it back to Jamaica, I found that there was a shoddy drive mechanism in the one I got. It never worked at all. Since then I've avoided the brand.

[Xenocrates]

Chris, I think Overburning has more to do with writing more data to the disk than writing faster to the disk in regards to the stipulated the size and speed ratings accordingly. Unless ofcourse, the definition has been revamped recently.

Ramesh - That's true. In those days, buffer-underrun protection was a big deal. Today its standard issue. I remember buying a Cyberdrive once, only to realise that it couldn't read re-writeable CDs. Never bought another after that.

With respect to the drive mechanism - Those were some early days my friend. Most CD recording done by large professional industrial companies like Plextor, was done in a massive poly-carbonate manufacturing plant. Poly-carbonate is the substance (the plastic) which makes standard CDs & DVDs. CDs that you buy off the shelf were literally pressed into production, much like how iron-smelting works. The white hot polycarbonate is poured into a mold which has the original recorded data in it (just like how LPs are made).

With the advent of home recording, they had to change their methods. Home users can't possibly take home a massive poly-carbonate press to make their own CDs now can they? ;D

So they had to come up with the drive mechanisms that would help home users ease the task of recording CDs. That's when phthalocyanine (the dye that allows recordable CDs and DVDs to store information) was invented.

So you have to recall Ramesh, just about everything in the industry was fresh and young back then. So there were several standards out, and a LOT of birthpains. But in the runnings Plextor has always made ROCK-SOLID Disc burners. They tried a number of things to make the disc stable inside the drive. I remember quite clearly the first burner I ever saw was a plextor which had a CD cassette which held the CD and you slipped the cassette into the burner.

Innovative design that was.

[Xenocrates]

I will give Deakie credit in mentioning however that the Sony guys are masters of design. I can't take that away from them. But Sony always has this bad habit of assuming that they're such bad*****e$, that they have the responsibility of defining new standards for the market, without trying to conform to existing ones.

Sony did this with the Gold-Book standard for recording CDs as opposing to the already existing Green-book, Blue Book and Red Book standards. The Gold and Green books were eventually canned for the Blue and Red book standards.

Sony also deviated from industry standards when making memory sticks. Everybody was making memory sticks based on the Compact Flash and the Secure Digital Multi-Media standard, Sony made their own. As a result, most hardware that was made (digital cameras, PDAs etc.) supported only the CF and SDMM standards. Sony was again left out into the cold.

If I had a dollar for everytime Sony deviated from industry standards to create their own maverick standard (causing consumers unnecessary pain because of their blind loyalty to the brand name) I would retire tomorrow morning.

See? They've done it yet again by pushing this DVD+R/RW standard. I wonder if Ropy knows that the firmware update is necessary for the Sony drive just so that it can properly burn DVD-R/RW discs?

The Sony burner is primarily a DVD+R/RW recording drive!!

Plextor on the other hand supports both standards will little trouble....

....and no firmware updates necessary ;)

[deakie]

yes but sony is one of the first to offer dvd burning to the consumer... :P
and i do like defending sony as true innovators.....no one can deny that....now if only the rest would listen to em :D we would have things that work truly well like firewire, hows that for bus speed eh? made dv to comp a reality, kicked usb into touch totally, brought integration of digital devices....music, video, data, yu name it..... :P firewire 2 will make usb almost obsolete.....ever transfer stuff from a comp to a firewire drive? kinda makes the rest extinct if you know what i mean.... :o
yes i know the 'other' boys who keep winning with their formats and leave us falling short of the true capabilities....reminds me of betamax/vhs wars where vhs won for the home market but beta still rules in the studios for quality.... ;) and yet vhs is being replaced by some silly plastic discs......cant think what they are called... :D :P
just think what the next sony 'innovative' drive will be able to do eh ::)

[Xenocrates]

Brilliant innovators yes, undeniably true - BUT if Sony was smarter, they'd make devices that support BOTH their standard and the other rising Industry standards. The firmware update for the Sony DRU drive is just one step in the right direction. Forming a DVD+R/RW alliance with several other companies is another good move. They should have been doing stuff like that for a looooong time.

Sony reminds me of Macintosh Corp. and other similar companies who thought that by massively infusing the market with enough of their products, the innovation alone with win consumers over. In every case, this was a poor decision. One of the primary reasons why Microsoft and IBM and other companies will always do well, is that they offer products that support each other - like an alliance. Microsoft is in bed with Dell, Gateway, HP, Sony and a host of other companies. Macintosh is in bed all alone playing with itself. If nobody knows how good they are in bed, how is word to get around?

Forming the DVD+RW alliance was the best thing that Sony did for itself. Because today, Sony is no longer the only innovator out there. There are so many other companies that have risen up out of the mist and shown that they are just as good at innovation as Sony. Companies like HP, Samsung, Hyundai, Panasonic and the Matsu****a league of companies. Sony is not alone anymore. So it's best strategy is to win as many friends as possible.

Only problem is, the DVD-R/RW Alliance (The DVD Forum) is a much bigger alliance than the DVD+R/RW alliance. That means automatically, more companies or brand names will support the -R standard than the +R.

[deakie]

the sony dru500u series was the first multi format dvd burner ;D so yes they are playing the field :D
i agree about being in bed all over does good for a business.....its pity too. when the mac was first born, it was lightning fast compared to the pc. though it still keeps pace somewhat in terms of speed, im afraid the pc may just about evolve to something a lil more mag than the mac can hope to reach.

oh no...i hear gk sharpening knives round there... :D

[Xenocrates]

LOL ;D

But it's true still. PCs are much faster than Macs. It's just that Macs have more processing power. So the Gui uses it up more - hence the perception of being slower than the PC. If there was a Windows for Macs, it'd run much faster than a PC. I imagine linux distros for Macs are phenomenally faster than both Windows & MacOS.

[Chris]

Chris, I think Overburning has more to do with writing more data to the disk than writing faster to the disk in regards to the stipulated the size and speed ratings accordingly. Unless ofcourse, the definition has been revamped recently....
You're correct Xeno, thanks for correcting me :). Now that I THINK about what I wrote I wonder what I was thinking :-[

[griffjon]

I don't think DVDs are going to last very long except as a movie-distribution medium, and if the industry doesn't settle on a standard, they're just dead.

Small, USB-interface drives are going crazy. Keychain-sized memory has been skyrocketing -- I mean, you can get a 512MB keychain drive now, or an iPod or other USB/firewire external HDD with 40+ Gs on it. Slow-burning, limited-life, easily-scratchable optical disks. portable drives are the wave of the future. DVDs might be nice for backup purposes, much like tape drives are (still) today.

[Xenocrates]

Griffjon, you may have made a slight miscalculation in your opinion. Let me explain:

Keychains, iPODs and what not use solid state silicon based memory. It's metallic and it erodes with time. Oxidation is an inevitable occurrence. It will not happen very quickly, but it will happen within a person's lifetime.

CDs & DVDs on the other hand use polycarbonates. Polycarbonates are a type of plastic, a subgroup of which is known as kevlar. They are non-degradeable plastic. They are not affected by oxygen, and therefore do not rust. In fact, the average lifespan of a CD (or DVD) has been calculated to be at least 150 years!!! :o :o

That's how long it will take before polycarbonate molecules start to loose some amount of cohesion. The phthalocyanine dye however is an extremely light sensitive substance. It's molecular structure is easily re-arranged by light or heat energy (Which is why you should NEVER leave your DVDs or CDs in your car!).

So once you keep your CDs or DVDs out of the sun, out of extreme temperatures and generally avoid scratching the surfaces, they can out last two of your family's generations.

I think DVDs will eventually (and completely) replace CDs. It's inevitable. Also, the cost to memory storage ratio between solid state silicon based integrated circuits and polycarbonates is simply uncomparable. You get far more storage per dollar for polycarbonate based optical media than you get for silicon based media.

[Xenocrates]

Compare the prices:

4.7 GB of storage on 1 DVD-R disc = US $1.80

256 MB of storage on a Key-Drive = US $50

Therefore, to get an equivalent amount of storage for silicon based solid state memory =

4.7 * 1024 = 4812.8 MB
4812.8 / 256 = 18.8 times more memory.

Therefore:
18.8 * US $50 = $940

So in order to get an equivalent of 4.7 GB of polycarbonate storage in solid state silicon based memory, you'd need to spend US $940 as opposed to $1.80!

Can you see the sheer economical difference between the two Griffjon? Solid state memory is:

$940 / $1.80 = 522 times more expensive than polycarbonate based memory.

In fact, looking at the cost per megabyte:

$50 / (256) = 20 cents per megabyte for solid state silicon memory

$1.8 / (4.7 * 1024) = 0.00037 cents per megabyte for polycarbonate memory

Now do you still think that solid state memory is going to overrun DVDs from the market? I hardly think so.

[Xenocrates]

Also Griffjon, you're not looking at the road ahead of you, you are only looking at the road directly in front. CDs had the same start as DVDs do now. When the 8-Track was king, nobody thought that cassettes would leave 8-Track in the dust. When the cassette was king, nobody thought that CDs would leave cassettes in the dust (how many of you even still use a cassette?) Now that CDs are king, you don't think DVDs will leave it in the dust.

The technology can only get better my friend. Worse now that DVDs are cheaper to manufacture and distribute than keydrives, they will both define a particular market segment.

Keydrives will get cheaper, but will only be used by people who want to replace floppy diskettes, who need the conveniece of something relatively tiny, fast, reliable and discreet.

DVDs on the other hand will dominate just about every other data storage requirement because it is cheaper, and phenomenally more useful than other storage mediums in the market to date.

It's that simple. ;)

[deakie]

totally agreee that for right now, dvds are gonna kick but with the new dual layer ones coming. 9.4gb at your burners head tips... :D

but then....lookin beyond, photonics are coming up with some serious crystal lattice blocks with storage in the gigs of gigs...written and read by lasers again....woooohoooo......storage like dirt.....better get a bigger dsl connection now..... ;D

[griffjon]

I don't think DVDs will going away as archival media, but I maintain that the future of portable/rewritable media will be solid state type thing, mainly, thumbdrive-sized ones. As soon as they get to ~1G, I'm investing. Prices will come down once more people start playing in the market.

Also, for real portability, a rewritable DVD requires a compatible burner at other random places. USB ports are much more likely to be available on any random system. I cary a CD-RW around a lot, and even normal usage scratches it within 6mos, from over-hot systems, bouncing around in its case, getting mashed up on the bus, etc. -- not a good enough media for portable usage.

Of course, in due time wireless bandwidth and accessability will be ubiquitous enough to wonder why we ever had to carry around media in the first place. I remember I used to have a cable modem in the states, and most of my friends also did, so I'd leave a hidden ssh server running, and connect in and activate FTP if I needed to grab a file or twenty.

One day, I'll be able to do that wherever I want to.

For now, I still use floppies on occasion, so I'm a bit nutso to begin with.

[Xenocrates]

Addendum:

I've found that the XBOX console:

- Does read DVD+RWs
- Does not read DVD+Rs
- Does read DVD-Rs
- Does not read DVD-RWs

...not that you'd want to buy DVD-RWs anyway since the write speed is only 2x as of this post...

However, they do read any CD-R provided your XBOX is equipped with a Samsung DVD drive, but only CD-Rs burned with a DVD-Writer if your older XBOX has a Phillips drive installed.

You can easily tell which drive your XBOX has by checking the purchase date.

Did you buy your XBOX before June, 2003? You have a Phillips drive. Hush.

If you bought it on or after June 2003, you have a Samsung drive. Wicked.

The XBOX Samsung drives will read almost ANY kind of optical media (except DVD+Rs, -RWs and DVD-RAM discs). So if you're going to burn something that you want both your XBOX and your PC to enjoy, use a DVD-R. You can't go wrong either way. ;)

[Chris]

bear with me Xeno for I'm not a Xbox owner, but can the drive be changed? Is it a generic drive?

[Malloc-X]

a blank dvdr is much cheaper than a thumb drive as xenocrates said. instead of buyin a 1gb thumb drive u could buy a dvd burner and alot of blank dvds or an external hard drive that holds a lot more. i know its more bulky buts it way better and much cheaper. i am think of gettin a dvdr burner once the dual layer ones come out. meanin the single layer ones will be cheaper.

[Xenocrates]

Chris - Not quite. The XBOX as you may already know is really a stripped down PC. But Microsoft was building them with Phillips DVD-ROM drives. These drives had a limit where they couldn't read CD-Rs as some games were still small enough to be printed on CDs. The Japanese XBOXes carried Samsung drives, which could read CD-Rs, and as a result, some games released in Japan could not run on the American made XBOX. Since then they've started switching to Samsung DVD-ROM drives in the American XBOXes.

Also yes, the drive can be changed. In fact, your DVD-Burner can work inside an XBOX!!! Yes! The drive bay was made to fit a standard sized 5¼ inch optical drive from a PC. The only thing you'd have to do is change the front of the disc tray on your DVD-Burner with the front that comes on an XBOX DVD-ROM. But aside from that, virtually any optical drive can work with an XBOX. It uses the SAME IDE INTERFACE!

How cool is that?! ;D ;D

Did you know Chris that peeps are putting 120 Gig hard drives in their XBOX?

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, the XBOX is the ULTIMATE Gaming console. ;)

Malloc-X - I agree. I recently bought 50 DVD-Rs for $4,500. That's 50 x 4.7 Gbs = 235 Gigs!!!! :o :o

For that same $4,500, I can only get 128mb of storage on a Key drive!! :o :o

That's why I was saying that there's no way key drives will replace DVD-ROMS as mass storage of choice. Floppy disks? Definitely. DVD-ROMS? Heck no. Not in a million years.

[Xenocrates]

Gentlemen, especially those living in Kingston,

When you're going to buy DVD-Rs, I strongly recommend that you check Royale Computers in Pavillion Mall in Half-Way-Tree. I've burned obscene giggages worth of data on the discs they sell, and I must admit that the quality is quite favourable for the miniscule price tag of $90 a pop! :o

The DVD-Rs they sell also work EXCELLENTLY with the XBOX console (if you've modded it). So go rush dem now! You won't get a better price in the corporate area. Believe me, I checked. ;)

[Virus]

no, i have a DVD Burner and i still use CD'z cause wid DVD if U slightly scracth them or u get an cyclic redundancy error that dvd with 4.7gb of info is :'(

Not to mention when dual layer burners come out. i would still buy one but use cd'z as backup.

But floppy disk's are dead

[Malloc-X]

DVD if U slightly scracth them or u get an cyclic redundancy error that dvd with 4.7gb of info is :'(




i dont own a dvd burner yet, can someone verify that quote

[Chris]

...But floppy disk's are dead

... and may it rest in peace ;D

[Malloc-X]

hey i bought a floopy disk last week, i needed it for a visual basic exam.

[Greatis]

cyclic redundancy error

I have a cdr with age of empires the orginal and :'( :'( it giving me cyclic redundancy error when I try to copy it to may hard drive. can anything be done? :'(

[wheelman]

Does it have a scratch on it or any blemishes?

[Xenocrates]

no, i have a DVD Burner and i still use CD'z cause wid DVD if U slightly scracth them or u get an cyclic redundancy error that dvd with 4.7gb of info is :'(


Yes this is true. Because DVD-5 (i.e. 4.7 GB discs) use two disc layers to store the data, any scratch on the surface layer (the data side) will significantly refract the laser when it tries to adjust itself to read the second layer underneath. Read more about this in my lengthy contribution on page 2 of this thread.

So therefore, DVD±Rs need EXTREME CARE. Don't buy DVD±R discs in the sleeves that I see some people with. Those sleeves with scratch the DVD, rendering it useless. ALWAYS USE CD or DVD jewel cases to store your dvds!

With that said, DVD-Rs are easier to corrupt via scratching than DVD+Rs. DVD+Rs can take all kinds of punishment and still the data will be readable. This is because of how DVD+Rs store the data. In a nutshell, DVD+Rs store data similarly to how a RAID drive stores data. If a sector is unreadable, the DVD drive can recalculate the bytes that are expected to be in that sector lying under the scratched portion of the disc, and thereby avoid cyclic redundancy errors. This is also why fewer DVD drives can read DVD+Rs.

That's the reason why DVD+Rs are BEST used for backing up IMPORTANT mission critical data. In fact, DVD+RWs are the most durable DVD recordables you can buy.

Only use DVD-Rs for entertainment and multimedia purposes. This is necessary for maximum compatibility across other non computer oriented DVD drives.

[Virus]

alright floppies are not dead but on its way.

Im gonna miss you floppies :'(..... ;D

[deakie]

i distinctly heard xeno say
multimedia

:D 8)

[Chris]

i distinctly heard xeno say
multimedia

LOL :D

[Malloc-X]

I have a cdr with age of empires the orginal and :'( :'( it giving me cyclic redundancy error when I try to copy it to may hard drive. can anything be done? :'(


You can try a program called cdr diagnostic, or dvd x rescue(comes with dvd x copy). Open up the cd with one of these programs and try copyin the files off.