Is Jamaican University IT Education Good Enough?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Is the IT education provided by our Universities equipping our graduates with the skills they need to function effectively in the job market?
If not, then how can it be improved?

From time to time this issue arises especially with employers looking at hiring recent Univesity graduates.

[igodit]

Information Technology in Jamaica's Educational Institutes are based on books, they do not allow students to think outside of the box. Based on the comparison to the educational system say in the U.S. and U.K. there children learn about IT at an early age because they understand that IT is not a fad or a phase.

They learn about physical and engineering in other methods than that of a text book. And also learn how to apply it to something fun and exciting. They are not given limititation to experiment, just supervised assistance. That is why they can compete in robotics competition, science fairs and other events that test your knowledge and how you apply it.

All we do is to show off outside work that we have not been apart of, or when we do get the chance to show it off we are in our late 30s, own a company and someone was sorry enough for us to give us a break, or worst. You know someone in the IT Ministry that you can call a relative name.

[Chris]

Any education is only as good/useful as how much you the student put into it and apply it for yourselves. If you expect to be put into an auto learning mode then it won't work out. Yes it's true that foreign Universities have more resources and opportunities, but we aren't that bad though.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I agree that the amount of effort you put into any study helps determine the amount of benefit you get from it. However I keep hearing it being said that graduates are leaving our campuses without having certain skills which employers would consider basic.

I think part of that perception is due to the expectations and wants of employers - they usually want a candidate who can "hit the ground running" without the need for additional training. Their expectations may not be as realistic as it should be.

However, a good case can be made to say that there is plenty room for improvement in our curriculums.

Hopefully times have changed now, but when I was at university, I remember attending Networking classes, but not once did the lecturer even bring a network card or cable into class to show us.
All we did were mathematical calculations and theory.

There needs to be more emphasis to the practical elements that are directly relevant to the work functions. People won't be adequately prepared with out.

[Chris]

I've also heard the need for graduates who can "hit the road running". The employers tend to look towards UTech and other Universities for students with those "traits". Unfortunately UWI students tend to be stereo-typed as having nothing more than book knowledge. This needs to change and UWI's administration need to take a look at what the market demands versus what tradition dictates :-\

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I think that the Universities should incorporate more practical work in their courses. Let students do courses that prepare them for the real world. Heck...offer certification courses too. Incorporate those elements in the degree then give the students the option to take the certification exams so that at the end of the programme, they have their degree to validate the theory and the certification to validate the practical knowledge.

That's what foreign universities are doing.

[Nastrodamus]

I think that the Universities should incorporate more practical work in their courses. Let students do courses that prepare them for the real world. Heck...offer certification courses too. Incorporate those elements in the degree then give the students the option to take the certification exams so that at the end of the programme, they have their degree to validate the theory and the certification to validate the practical knowledge.

That's what foreign universities are doing.


Well said.

It should be remembered that Technology is always changing and thus its new information is found and put to use quite frequently. The curriculum for universities should be structured such that it easily incorporates new technologies that will make the scholars marketable in the IT world. It would make no sense spending years and a lot of money at a University to get something that don't help you.

I am told that Linux is now apart of the UTECH bachelors program. It took awhile but has been implemented.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Well said.

It should be remembered that Technology is always changing and thus its new information is found and put to use quite frequently. The curriculum for universities should be structured such that it easily incorporates new technologies that will make the scholars marketable in the IT world. It would make no sense spending years and a lot of money at a University to get something that don't help you.

I am told that Linux is now apart of the UTECH bachelors program. It took awhile but has been implemented.



I hear UWI has started to increase exposure to Linux as well - somebody from there can confirm this.

UTech recently started teaching an IT Security course 8) 8)
From the looks of that syllabus, the students could jump and do the Security+ after that course too ;) 8) 8) 8)

So it looks like there's a little light at the end of the tunnel (hope it's not a train) ;)

[deakie]

to give the perspective from UK as well, which i think is applicable.

we have the same demands from industry here. why cant we have more capable grads. the problem is not heard in the US though....wanna know why?
training!

companies want ppl trained before they get them so they dont have to pay out for it. this is a losing philosophy. all the countries that are doing well are countries that realise that ppl have to be trained.

it is foolish to expect that uni's and tech schools produce the same kind of ppl. then why differentiate the two. the tech's are trained for practicality now and the uni grads are prepared as thinkers. why business cannot seperate the two? because they are run normally by people who dont have long term views for the company they are running.

you got to tech school to use your hands and you go to uni to use your head. its that simple.
uni grads take a longer time to train. here's some reasons why...
1. they have to learn to use the tools that the course gave them.
2. they have to learn to apply the new way of thinking to their careers or job.
3. they have to problem solve in unique ways and not simply by following a plan someone else has thought out.
4. they train to become experts.

to expect the wrong thing from the wrong type of grad shows the ignorance of companies.

this is a underlying problem in the UK now and why there is a scramble by grads to work for foreign companies.
next post!

[deakie]

as a result, in the field of science and engineering, the numbers attending those courses are falling off dramatically. industry doesnt want to address the issues of training. hence, getting a job first time up is hard. once in the students see the hawkish behaviour and become just as hawkish by moving companies every 6 to 18 months. this gaurantees their training in areas which are different but related.

few companies will take the time to setup a training package and will always quote the movement issue as a reason why not to. idiots! dont they know if they train they will have the best clamouring to get in? see their shortsightedness.
as a result, the more capable head for the americas or to companies from abroad to work. these companies enjoy the benefit of having workers who are loyal because of the on going development of staff. these companies also do better in the market place as they have competent ppl working for them.

in britain the engineer and scientist are not well payed as they are seen as regular joes.
in the americas and the rest of europe, they are highly trained and competent ppl who are commanding salaries that are only beaten by lawyers and doctors. imagine.....lawyers, that bunch of lying toerags....hehehehe

i expect its the same in JA.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

as a result, in the field of science and engineering, the numbers attending those courses are falling off dramatically. industry doesnt want to address the issues of training. hence, getting a job first time up is hard. once in the students see the hawkish behaviour and become just as hawkish by moving companies every 6 to 18 months. this gaurantees their training in areas which are different but related.

few companies will take the time to setup a training package and will always quote the movement issue as a reason why not to. idiots! dont they know if they train they will have the best clamouring to get in? see their shortsightedness.
as a result, the more capable head for the americas or to companies from abroad to work. these companies enjoy the benefit of having workers who are loyal because of the on going development of staff. these companies also do better in the market place as they have competent ppl working for them.

in britain the engineer and scientist are not well payed as they are seen as regular joes.
in the americas and the rest of europe, they are highly trained and competent ppl who are commanding salaries that are only beaten by lawyers and doctors. imagine.....lawyers, that bunch of lying toerags....hehehehe

i expect its the same in JA.


Some companies out here operate in the same ways deekie. There are some "IT Solution Providers" who don't bother to train their "Engineers" on the technologies they are contracted to implement for thier clients. Their "Engineers" turn up at a client site with the <Insert technology here> for Dummies book in hand and learns how to setup the thing at that time.
Those "IT Solution Providers" always moan that if you train people, they will leave. As a result of that mentality, there a whole lot botched IT solution implementations around, and it has given the local IT community a really bad rep.

Looking at things from a graduates perspective, in a market where jobs are tough to come by, you'd want to have an education that really does prepare you to go out and get a job to pay off the student loan you just took out for the degree. Incorporating more practical programmes into the curriculums adds value and makes the grad more competitive. However, this does not absolve companies from training their staff.Having trained and knowledgable staff is a critical factor for success of the business.

[keno]

These conversations are quite good. UWI, though not having alot of practical courses, does a fairly good job at theory in IT based items. I for one believe the theory is just as important as the practical, actually it is more important as it allows one to explore beyond what is already in place. Having courses with more practical course is all good and well but all that teaches you is how something is already done and u just repeat. With theory you now what the foundations are for that thng working how it works and you can think of new ways to make it work. This is something I think in Ja we have a problem with. Nobody really thinks about how to do stuff and try to do it another way except when we want to get it free or work around the system. Hence or lack of more innovation.

Having practical skills is all good and well. Yes, it will get you a job and get you paid but have you ever been doing your job and feel that there must be an easier way? ... This is where the theory comes in and with a little bit of effort you can devise a new and easier way of doing things. You see, with theory, you are given a solid foundation on how to grow. With practical, you are given a static foundation of how to do something. Tech changes and hence so does the method of doing something. If you only know that you have to turn a lever left to get something going, then you will be completely out of it when the lever is removed and there is still a way to have that thing work.

To summarize :) ... we need both theory and practical in our universities but theory is very important, do not under rate it! A lot of people dont like the theory because it may be boring, etc, etc ... but just think of what Ja would be like if every person that considers themself an IT Professional actually understood more about what is actually happening with the things we use everyday, namely computers.

We would have less complaints about Windows blue screening and horror calls and we would have some of us hacking into the Unix kernel to find its vulnerabilities just for the fascination of learning how the kernel works :D ... then we could give India some competiton for the Global IT Market Workers.

Anyway, you guys just got a core dump from my processing unit so debug it and see what you can find anything in its contents ;)

Peace out

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Good points keno.

I guess you have to factor in what kinds of jobs graduates are going into. One would not expect that a graduate with little practical experience is going to be managing production servers with millions of dollars of data right away, but after they've gotten some practical experience they could - and then they can be in a better position to effect improvements after they've understood what it's all about.

You can't separate the theory from the practical and be successful.

The practical is what proves the theory.

[Xenocrates]

This discussion is an adequate reminder that the University of Technology is making some very serious strides toward the more useful end of the Technological yardstick. One cannot discount the University of the West Indies either. However, for a first degree in the IT field, I believe that the University of Technology has a far more suitable degree program. However, I will not dare to make such a comparison without stating facts, as facts are what separates truth from fiction. My cousin and I are both in the same years at either University doing the very same degree program and based on our course outline, I will break down the course contents on a year by year basis.

Since there are many similarities between the Universities, I will only outline in detail those done @ Utech and make comparisons for UWI. The courses outlined for UWI are CORE courses. UWI's degree program is very elective-centric. Meaning that students choose additional courses to do based on credits required for passing the course. UWI functions more like a traditional US university while UTECH functions more like a Liberal Arts University. The difference is that UWI gives students more freedom to choose courses they wish to pursue from year 1. UTECH's course outline is more stringent, and only relaxes in the second semester of the 3rd year (as do Liberal Arts universities). Additionally, UWI students can double major. UTECH students can't. However, UTECH students will graduate more well rounded than UWI students (since UWI allows students to choose what courses they want to do in addition to core courses.) That means 90% of the time, UWI students are inclined to choose any course that will make up the credit requirements based on difficulty level. That makes for an easier university experience than at UTECH, but graduates are less likely to be useful in the work world after graduation.

Please bear this in mind.

[Xenocrates]

Freshman Year

UTECHUWI



Introduction to computing systems (Theory) - Historical update on computer systems, where they are coming from, how they're being used etc. This course is only for those who enter UTECH without IT at the CXC level or Computer Science at either O or A level.
Introduction to programming (Theory) - Shows students how to think like a programmer. No programming language is used here. Students are taught how to implement flowcharts, pseudocode and how to apply these techniques logically. This course is quintessential for the rest of the years at Utech.
Core Mathematics (A Level Pre-Calculus)
Networking (Theory w. Practicals on building networks from scratch) - Now includes using Linux to build entire networking solutions. Excellent! ;D
Advanced Information Technology (Using Productivity Tools, building webpages, Enterprise Systems)
Introduction to C All practical - students are taught core concepts (such as Iteration, Arrays, Strings, Pointers, Structures, Files & Streams, Interfaces, Operations etc) and given room to explore other facets of the language so as interfacing with physical memory and the hard disk, tapping into video memory, driver creation etc...
Electronics - Theory & Practical. Students are taught all the basics of electronics and are taught how to physically build electronic circuits in the labs. Quite a fun class I must add - soldering capacitors, diodes, leds, resistors, electronic pathways etc to a circuit board to build transformers, radios, inductors and a whole shebang of really cool stuff. We also got to build memory circuits (that simulate how DIMMs work) using Integrated Circuits which we have to determine how to use based on their internal sequential logic gate circuitry.) Again I say, VERY fun course! ;D
Environmental Studies - Environmental awareness course. Now mandatory for all tertiary institutions.
Communication Theory - Basic writing skills are developed here.
Discrete Mathematics - Sets, Notations, entity relations, induction, etc. etc.




Introduction to Computer Science (I & II) - All theory. But all of the concepts taught in UTECH's C Programming course and Data Structures course (Year II) are taught here in meticulous detail - just without practical application. This is not done until Second semester Year II. I must add that these courses lean more heavily towards abstract mathematics than programming.
Introductory Physics (A & B) - Same thing as UTECHs Electronics course - minus the fun part: The Labs. It's all theory.
Basic Mathematics (A & B) - Same thing as UTECHs Core Mathematics + Probability & Statistics courses.

[Xenocrates]

Sophomore Year
UTECHUWI



Probability & Statistics (Theory) - Pretty self explanatory
Data Structures - Practical implementation of concepts such as Stacks, Queues, Linked Lists, Binary

Trees etc. in the C programming language (the course is primarily practical) and algorithm analysis techniques

such as the Big Oh notation, sorting & searching algorithms (quick, merge, insert, heap, binary etc)

and rating algorithms based on Asymptotic orders of complexity. This is actually done in Year I at UWI, but

without the pratical application.
DBMS (I & II) - This course is part theory and part practical. First semester is all theory, where students

learn all of the concepts sorrounding databases and how to use SQL to build databases on paper based on ER

notations and DATABASE arithmetic. The second semester allows students to actually build and query databases

from scratch in the labs using what was learned in Sem 1 using Access and Visual Basic. Then students have to

build a fully implementable database (complete with user interface) to show-off their understanding of the

concepts. Incredibly useful course - especially for the working world.
Advanced Communication Skills / Business Communication - Students are taught APA methodology of

writing theses (for final year degrees) and for creating professional documents in the real world. Skills

acquired here will be subsequently used for all assignments in the coming years.
Object Oriented Programming using C++ - Delves into Inheritance, Polymorphism, Overloading,

Exception Handling.... the works. All practical. Students not only understand how the concepts work on paper,

but they can put it into practice to see how it can solve real world applications. The final project required

students to use these concepts to build fully featured Relational Database Management System complete with a

graphical user interface - all in C++. That means, the system should emulate Database functions such as

Relational Integrity, Event Handling, Cascading Update / Deletion etc... Quite a challenging course. 8)
Calculus - Can you say Gradient on a Curve? Partial Fractions? Area under a curve? Second

derivatives? 'Nuff said ;D
Psychology - Perhaps one of the most exciting courses (second to electronics)
Computer Logic & Digital Design - All practical. Students build logic sequential circuits using a

software called Electronic Workbench. The course takes the concept a little further by allowing students to

build and simulate real world circuits such as: Memory (DIMMs/ SIMMs), CPUs, Cache, Adder-Subtracter Bit

shifting Registers - the whole works. Massive brain expansion required. ;)
A Free Non-computing Elective. It should be pretty obvious (from my other posts) which elective I did ;D




Digital Logic & Computer Architectures - Everything done in the UTECH course of similar name, minus

the lab applications (which take up most of the UTECH course).
Discrete Mathematics for Computer Science - Same as course done in Year 1 @ UTECH, However, the UWI

course is far more sophisticated, delving into the domains of algorithms, Eulerian and Hamiltonian circuits

and a whole list of higher level abstract mathematics. Utech's Comp Sci degree courses either does not touch

some of these concepts (because they are more useful for Engineering students) or merges them on a primal

level with courses in the third year. Either way, UTECH's mathematics degree courses are simply no match for

those at UWI. Comparing Utech's math courses to those at UWI is like comparing a bicycle with a Mercedes Benz.

U get the idea. ;)
Information Structures & Algorithms - Same thing as UTech's Data Structures course - but with a

heavier leaning towards mathematics. Utech's course concentrates more on PRACTICAL programming applications of

these concepts. UWI's course uses no practical application, except on paper. As such UWI's course delves into

slightly more sophisticated representation techniques. However, again, there is no practical demonstration of

how these techniques can be useful in the real world. This is not to say that they aren't, they ARE, it's just

that UTECH students will know HOW to apply these concepts in the real world. UWI students won't. Then again,

UTECH students won't delve into the mathematical concepts as deeply as do UWI students. You should decide

which is more useful to you as a potential student, the mathematical theory or the practical application.
Systems Programming - Unfortunately, based on my cousin's elaboration, this course allows students

to actually build a fully featured systems solution. They are not taught any programming languages (aside from

very basic C) and they are not taught any application techniques. Students have to learn all of these on their

own. At UTECH, students are always building systems solutions. Therefore, you will find a lot of UWI students

at UTECH's summer programming courses trying to learn languages such as C/C++, Java, Visual Basic/C++, .NET,

pHp etc. so that they can complete this course at UWI. I find this curiously amusing. I had to actually help

my cousin complete this course as he didn't know jack about programming. However, why would UWI have this

course without any practical courses to back it up? I am totally befuddled ???

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Xeno, having gone through the UWI track a while back, I must say that the level of exposure to practical application of the theory learned in certain courses was heavily dependent on the lecturers personality, and the nature of the students.

I remember the Digital Logic and Computer Architectures course I took at the time had a new lecturer who had not taught that course before. He was revolutionary, and made the practical applications of the subject very clear. I remember spirited discussions as we disected the qualities of the Intel, AMD, Cyrix and IBM chips. Many of us in class were building our first PC's back then and that class just messed beautifully with the research and analysis we have to do when we figure out what hyped up parts we're gonna put in our PC's and why. We had to design circuits using Diglog (FREE WITH LINUX ;D). Come to think of it...he was a big advocate of Linux. Pity he got fed up with UWI and left. :-\

I've found the programming courses to be decent (if you can get past some of the boring lectures). The projects gave you a chance to put the theory to use - I remember building memory management simulations for the Systems Programming course as well as UNiX file managers and other utilities. I've seen projects for encryption/decryption programmes coming out of that course too.

But there's more to IT than programming, and that's where UWI starts to fall short. Programmers coming out of UWI don't have much problems I think...they get a very good programming experience. But for the rest of the population who aren't as keen on coding, UWI didn't expose you to much else. I'd like to see some courses on things like Systems Administration/Management (foreign Universities have similar courses) which impart best practices and expose students to some of the environments they may encounter in the field.

And I still can't get over the fact that I went through a Networking course, and not once did the lecturer bring in a Network card, cable, or NOS to show us what all the calculations were about (not even a traceroute or a ping made it to class).

Most of the practical experience at UWI was gained by students, in the computer labs. If you were fortunate enough to get a part time job at one of the labs, there you could see how the things you learned in class were actually relevant. That was where it all came together. 8)

[Nastrodamus]

Interesting....

Does anyone know the IMP/IMS tract for their new BSc in Computer Studies (Informational Technology)? Is it accredited like their diploma course? What is the advantage and disadvantage if IMS/IMP vs UTECH or UWI?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Interesting....

Does anyone know the IMP/IMS tract for their new BSc in Computer Studies (Informational Technology)? Is it accredited like their diploma course? What is the advantage and disadvantage if IMS/IMP vs UTECH or UWI?


Check http://www.imsjm.com for info on the programmes offered by IMS/IMP

They basically facillitate the degree programmes from foreign universities like FIU and UFL.
So if you do an MSc. in Computer Engineering from UFL at IMP, it's the same degree you would get if you flew up to Florida and took the courses there. Internationally recognized and accredited.

The advantage of this is that you can get a "foreign" degree while living in Jamaica and you only have to pay the cost of the academic programme (not boarding, airfare etc.) and you can be working while studying (however this presents it's own unique challenges).

Also, many of the lecturers are internationally recognized and acclaimed (you've used some of their text books in school). So having that kind of exposure is great. They actually fly down to conduct the courses.

The disadvantage is that it costs more than a degree from UWI/UTECH.

I know a few people currently doing the BSc. from FIU @IMS and they report that it is good.
The courses are challenging and the lecturers are very good.

[Xenocrates]

Junior Year
UTECHUWI



Computer Organisation & Assembly - This is possibly one of UTech's the flagship courses. This is an extension of the Digital Logics course done in Freshman year. Here students learn how to physically build PCs from scratch. They learn about form factors, voltage stepping, overclocking, advanced bit-shifting for logic circuits, building complex registers using micromodules such as adder/subtractors, decoders, multiplexors, demultiplexors, carry-lookahead adders - the works. Additionally, students are taught how to program using Assembly (Machine) Language. VERY Cool ;D The syllabus of this course succintly follows that of the A+ Certification course, but in more detail. So if you are planning on doing A+ certification, you can actually do this course at UTech and with some additional reading, pass your A+ exams. ;)
Advanced Programming With Java - This takes programming to the ultimate level. Students are now building applications that make use of multi-threading, networking, cross-platform interoperability and building graphical user interfaces. Final project includes building Internet Communication utilities using the client / server model.
Analysis of Algorithms - In my opinion, this course is an attempt to match UWI's sophisticated mathematical analysis sub-modules. All contents of this course are already covered in great detail in UWI's first year courses. This is admittedly, a brutally difficult course. Some of my colleagues would disagree.
Operating Systems - Submodular components of operating systems such as semaphores, scheduling algorithms, file/memory management etc. are studied here. Labs include hands on training in Unix and just very recently (as in like, starting this academic year) hands on training in Linux ;D (We're using Mandrake 9.2).
Software Engineering - This is a monster course that lasts all the way into the Senior year. Students learn how to progress through the stages of system analysis, requirements specification, systems design, implementation and maintenance. The main deliverable of this course will determine if students graduate or not. Students are required to build a real fully implementable automated solution and apply it in the REAL world. That means, students have to find a company that will be willing to work with them in the project development. Successful installation of the solution (which occurs in the final year) will determine (in addition to their academic performance) the level of the degree they acquire. So students graduate as fully qualified Systems Analysts. This course has a dual purpose. Not only does it expose students to how a real world system is built and implemented, but it also introduces students to managers and employers out in the working world. 9/10 times Truly successful students actually land a job in the target organisation before graduating. Now that's a damn good university course if you ask me. ;)
Research Methodologies - Almost a fusion of mathematics and business communication models, students are familiarised with research methods used to prepare scientific journals. This course is quintessential to the final thesis for both the first and any subsequent degrees the student may progress to.
Professional Ethics - The name sez it all.
Computing Electives - Students are given a chance to choose a computing elective that is not on the core course outline that leads into their specialisations. Some really good electives have been popping up of late. To name a few, there are such courses as: Network Engineering (follows the MCSE model, and includes issues such as Security risk management and mitigation strategies) System Development (Using the .NET platform) Multimedia (using such tools as the Macromedia suite of programs, including Director and Flash, as well as 3D modelling and animation using Maya and DirectX, additionally, there is Computer Graphics Engineering using Abobe Photoshop and the Corel suite of programs) Web-Development (Students are taught cutting edge tools for pHp, ASP/JSP, CGI, MySQL etc. etc.) Linux Administration (this is a brand new elective that delves deeper into Linux than does the standard Operating Systems course outline). There are many more courses available for students to choose from. This gives 3rd year students the freedom to specialize in whatever field they wish to pursue after graduation.

Programmers go into system development. Web-designers go into Web Development. Computer graphics afficionados go into Multimedia (where people are actually coming in to teach Game programming - just started happening this year!) Networking engineers go into the said field. They can actually process to take MCSE exams, with some additional reading, after doing this course. How cool is that? ;D




Operating Systems - Same concepts as those taught at UTECH. What they don't do, is delve as deep into operating systems as does the UTECH course. The UWI course seems to stop at process management. The UTECH course covers Process, Memory, File, Device and User Interface management aspects. They do have labs for this course. I also do know for a fact that Linux training has become a fundamental part of this course as well, even though it is not stipulated on the course outline. However, only enthusiasts will take it to the next level. Kudos to UWI must be made as well in recognition of the transformation of a few of their labs into Linux only labs. That's a bold step forward, and admittedly, something UTECH has yet to do. What I do know, is that it was a friend of mine who was going to UWI at the time that actually facilitated the move to Linux for that particular lab. The only Linux lab that exists at UTECH is used by students specialising in that operating system in their Junior and Final years.
Artificial Intelligence - AI concepts such as knowledge based systems, robotics etc. as well as ProLog programming.
Information Systems in Organisations - Similar to the Software Engineering course at UTECH, but severely skewed towards a managerial perspective. This course is something more of an advanced Economics class with leanings towards computing. It's intention is more of an awareness strategy for computing students of organisational business models and how computing solutions help make these models more efficient and cost effective. As you can tell, this is a theory only course. Detailed systems analysis and design and real world applications are not a part of this course, (as they are a part of the Software Engineering course at UTech). UTech has a similar course for students doing managerial studies. UWI seems to be more pre-occupied with its computing students having a stronger managerial background than hands-on skills. Apparently, additional skills learned are up to the student (please bear in mind the choice based system @ UWI).
Compiler Design - A course that gives students an appreciation of compilers and how they work. Students are required to build their own programming language/compiler at the end of this course. Interesting...

[Xenocrates]

Senior Year

For both Univerisities, the final year allows computing students to spend time primarily on their specialisation. In this facility, UWI offers more freedom to students to take on courses as they see fit. UWI Students can actually graduate with 2 degrees in one go. For example, my cuz is majoring in Computer Science & Mathematics. UTECH does not offer this kind of freedom, but better prepares students for the working world by giving all final year courses practical hands on approaches that can be verified outside of the classroom.

The Final Thesis for both bodies are marked by the same body of individuals. In fact, there are lecturers that teach at both universities. The end product of a UWI student rests VERY heavily on the student. UWI students are more under pressure to select courses that will make their degree worthwhile. UTECH students are not. UTech students however, undergo a far more stressful course and have far less free time on their hands than do UWI students. This is because of the overwhelming content of the UTECH Comp Sci Degree.

[Xenocrates]

Since the UWI degree's meaningfulness is determined by the students, managers in the real world by default explicitly stipulate in their want ads that students have a UTECH Degree or equivalent. That is because they know that no matter when a student graduates, they WILL have completed certain practical training exercises their organisation may need. They don't have that kind of guarantee of a UWI Comp Sci graduate.

This does not mean that UWI Computing graduates are looked down upon. The very idea is ridiculous. HOWEVER, a UWI computing student's usefulness in the work world is only as good as the courses he chooses to do while at UWI. So theoretically, many (if not most) UWI students graduate with very little real world skills as the courses they choose to complete are not necessarily the best ones that would make them truly marketable. It's nice to have that fancy piece of paper. But how can you back up the paper in the real world?

There are very good courses available @ UWI. What I do not like about UWI is that courses such as C programming (and a host of others) are NOT core courses. To me, that is nonsense. Furthermore, I do not like the fact that UWI stresses managerial skills for their computing FIRST degree more than TECHNICAL skills. Managers are usually the first people to loose their jobs, since everybody wants to be somebody else's boss. What is the sense of graduating from UWI with a degree that stresses managerial skills when students will NEVER get a management job right out of UWI just like that, without any previous Job experiences? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Most managers would think twice before giving a job to any young university student who only has a first degree (from any university) who doesn't have managerial skills and experience. You have to work your way up to the manager status. Start out as a programmer. Then move on to be a technical project manager. Then a Project Manager. Then after doing your masters, you take the managerial position.

However, since today's Jamaican organisations are far too top heavy (especially Government) having a practical skill is VERY VERY important. If all else fails, you can use your education to start your own business. I'm not sure all UWI students can say that - unless they choose all of the practical courses available at UWI. This is one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for GodKid. He went into a field practically no one else was even thinking of doing while at UWI. Now Godkid has his own business.

Now there's an example of a smart, no make that brilliant, UWI graduate. ;)

Too many UWI students do the comp sci course just for the sake of completing a degree to say they have a degree in a field where they are sure to make money. UWI makes it too easy for students to leave the institution with a degree and no marketable skills. Skills are what get people paid nowadays. In today's world, it's not enough to have a piece of paper that says you have a degree. So long as you plan to work for someone else, Certifications are the THING....

....or you can just do the UTECH Comp Sci degree ;D

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I think UTECH now offers a course in Information Security which bears similarity to the Security+ syllabus. 8)

I think we can all agree that there are pros and cons to making any educational choice. But what it boils down to is the individual. I know exceptional grads from UTECH as well as UWI. What they all have in common is a drive to excel at what they do. They never stop learning, and they have fun with their work. The institution they chose is just a stepping stone to higher heights - it does not define them.

Those are the individuals who recognize the weaknesses of whatever academic programme they are in, and find ways to compensate for it and get whatever it is they are missing (by working at a computer lab, experimenting on their own, doing additional courses elsewhere).

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I must say that I'm more encouraged hearing that some more real world things are now being taught in those programmes (BigUps to UTECH for the Hardware and Security courses 8) ) . Care just has to be taken to keep the content current and relevant, and to get quality lecturers and facillities to support the programmes. ;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

How does NCU measure up ???


Good question. Maybe someone could post the syllabus for comparison and talk about their experiences in that programme.

[gravyflex]

Love the flow of this thread still. I hope to start UTECH in Aug. doing the BSC in CIT and I'm encouraged by whats being said.

I work in the field and I have a few certs and I have encountered the stigma that you guys refer to with UWI grads. The UTECH grads are almost always more technical. I know several persons with Com Sci degess from UWI who are unemployed. I realise that its mostly because they can't crimp cable, they can't fix pcs, they can't get on there belly to run cat 5 cable. and stuff like that.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Love the flow of this thread still. I hope to start UTECH in Aug. doing the BSC in CIT and I'm encouraged by whats being said.

I work in the field and I have a few certs and I have encountered the stigma that you guys refer to with UWI grads. The UTECH grads are almost always more technical. I know several persons with Com Sci degess from UWI who are unemployed. I realise that its mostly because they can't crimp cable, they can't fix pcs, they can't get on there belly to run cat 5 cable. and stuff like that.


Hmm...

I can't crimp cable, haven't "fixed" a pc in years (mine just keeps going :) ), and I've never got on my belly to run cat 5 cable. :-\
Luckily there are plenty of other things in IT that a UWI grad can do or I'd be out of a job ;)

[nder]

I've read most of this thread, got kinda tired after the entire first page though ;D But I though't I'd add my two bits worth.

First of all, I thought I'd comment on the UWI vs UTech debacle. I'm a UTech student, but I'm not particularly fond of the system here. However, the content that you cover in the courses is tremendous. Now, you don't ever complete what you are supposed to. But if you are motivated to do more that just pass courses you will learn a great deal of stuff. And contrary to popular opinion, you do ALOT of theory at UTech: Analysis of Algorithms, Theory of Computation, Analysis of Programming languages, just to name a few. I agreed with Keno's comments on the need for learning theory, and I think we do alot of that here at UTech too. So once again, if you are motivated you will learn to think outside the box. But don't expect UTech to teach you that. That comes from your mindset. I can't fairly assess UWI's course, but what I do know is that we do ALOT more at UTech, including most, if not all of what is done in the UWI course. We pay for it by the extra year though :-\

As for adjusting to the work world, I agree with previous comments regarding training. To become competent and usefull to any company we first need to be trained. We can't expect to come out of University fully operational with all our circuits functioning perfectly. No one expects a Doctor to finish their five year course and then throw them into an operating room :-X First, you have to do two year internship where you are no longer in the class-room. Lawyers, even after seven years in school, don't come out ready to defend Microsoft. You need traning and experience. Jamaican firms need to recognize this. To tap the full potential of graduates, they must be willing to train them. And we are willing to be trained!

EOF

[wiz]

as a student currently doing a computer science degree @ UWI I can say for a fact that what you are taught is the science not the technical part of things but the opportunity is there for you to get a job as a lab tech and get some hands on network training and there's more than enough exposure to programming and operating systems in the end we have limited resources but if a person desired the knowledge it can be had right there on campus i might add.

[randyq]

I trying to find information on web GIS Application

[wiz]

only GIS applications I know of are ArcGIS (used by most companies I know)

I would suggest you take a look around
www.gisdevelopment.net
www.oriongis.com

[Genesis2kx]

Wow, i'm glad i found this thread. This is the exact same debate I had last week wondering if i'm really at the right place. I currently attend UWI in the 2nd year. Missed out last semester though so i'm behind. Currently doing Analysis of Algorithms and Computer Organization, along with Intro to Physics. Basically i'm kind've regretting now going to Utech in teh first place. After reading all what Utech does its exactly on par with what i had intended on learning. But lack of research back in the day put me in this dilemna i guess. I'm thinking of transfering but trying to weigh the pros and cons and that syllabus overview has helped me see what exactly are the differences. Not sure if its 2 late to make the switch but I'm really motivated to get on the practical side of things which I'm not getting at UWI currently or subsequently it seems.

[g2cris]

just go do some certs when you're finished or during summers. no need to switch.

[wiz]

yeah I did my degree @ UWI the courses in your final year are more practical (Database, Networking etc) however I would recommend that in the summers you do some certs and try get some of the lab tech positions on campus....coming close the summer the dept of management studies always looks for lab techs and the things you learn in that lab particularly make you ready to be a network admin. However even if you dont get one of those jobs do Network+ cert or some others. The certs can be done in the summers and will make you a well rounded techie.

Making a switch after two years is gonna add alot of expense to your education and at the end of the day you may still need to do certs with a UTECH degree some employers want to know for a fact that you do have the skills (Certs) rather than knowing you're supposed to cause it was in your syllabus.

[alexdevmaster]

Is the IT education provided by our Universities equipping our graduates with the skills they need to function effectively in the job market?
If not, then how can it be improved?

From time to time this issue arises especially with employers looking at hiring recent Univesity graduates.

I think it does in one way and does not in another. The information taught is very, very applicable. It is in the application that things get screwed. Maybe its hard for the student to visualize what he could tangibly do with his IT skills. I was comparing the UWI IT undergraduate program with comparable programs at MIT and CMU and it was comparable in many respects.

But im not sure that many IT students at UWI understand what they can do with information they are learning.

[wiz]

Ufortunately the reality of the situation is once you are given some knowledge be it theoretical or practical you still have to go out and try to apply it to the best of your ability.

In a university class with 30-40 or more students lecturers can't hold your hands and make sure you learn. You have to actively seek the knowledge don't bother cussing about how much you paying for this education and they should be doing this or the course should be longer etc You are the one that is gonna have to deal with it at the end of the day so get focused and actively seek out opportunities to get experience or find mentors in your areas of interest...join Jamaica Computer Society or Jamaica Linux Users Group.

find out whats happening in the local IT industry. TechJ is a good place to start. The activities that you involve yourself in and the knowledge/links you seek outside of school hours are gonna make a world of a difference in the end.

To all the university students out there It's not easy but it's not impossible. Focus and put in the effort.

[digimon]

er.....................NCU .....anybody?

[frass2000]

i didnt read the whole thread, but from what im seeing you guys are talkin about university students gradute with out much if any hands on experience in IT, if im on track, they should a project every now and then, put them in groups and get them to build a network, so they would have to configure the server and clients and crimp the cables themselves, for the troubleshooting aspect, do what my teacher did my class in the first month, take them to a graveyard(a bunch of dead computers) and tell them they should make a bootable machine, make sure to hide all the mice, technician no need mouse

[cmac125]

The education at universities in Jamaica is as comparable to the ones in the states. The only thing about getting a foreign degree is that you are more valued by local employers when they see that your degree is from an american or british institution. The thing about going to school lets say in the states is that they have more resources and greater access to technology. I am currently attending school in the states and if anyone is intereted in getting in to a US based community college in florida they can send me information or PM me and I can send you the pertinent details. I am involved in a club at the college that assists potential new students...

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I came across this report on developing a strategic plan for UWI Mona (http://www.mona.uwi.edu/notices/2006/monastrategicengagementreport.pdf). Essentially, various stakeholders from inside and outside of UWI were consulted and their opinions and perceptions of how well UWI is performing, and what needs to be done for them to improve, were gathered and presented. A recurring opinion that is stressed throughout the report by various entities, is how UWI deals with and leverages technology. People feel that UWI needs to better use technology to achieve its goals, and to better prepare its students and staff to deal with technology and make the most of it. Technology is acknowledged as a critical component in the quest for realizing the goals of UWI.

There are other interesting tidbits in the report too - especially what employers think about UWI's effectiveness in delivering graduates with the skills that employers need. :eusa_whis

If you are a UWI student, past student, employer, lecturer, techie or just a regular Caribbean citizen, you need to read this report. ;)

[The good guy]

Funny some one pull this tread into place, i am a Exced student doing AAIT and right now i am on work exp. so far i have learned how to setup users on a domain configuring routers for wireless access, exchange server,repairs(well i already know that) learning how to use equipments to test wires for shorts crosstalk etc. and this other one that you can use to trace the wires by this funny sound.

At school we did the basics a little hands on and some paper work, but in the end they make sure they send you where you can get a chance to do some real hands on in the working world so when you leave school you can jump right into a job with an understanding of whats going on.